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-   -   Juan Martin Del Potro (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=451026)

Ash_Smith 01-15-2013 11:18 AM

Juan Martin Del Potro
 
*Warning: Big first post!

This thread has been inspired by none other than Mats Wilander...

Watching "Game, Set and Mats" on Eurosport (for our friends over the pond it's Eurosports highlights show) and Mats made some "interesting" comments about JMDP's forehand...

"If he hit it properly he could hit it twice as hard, well twice is an exaggeration, but he could hit it much harder with proper technique. It's definitely not the technique you want in the modern game"

So this got me thinking, whilst JMDP's forehand may look a little different how does he fare in the 4 key positions; Preparation, Drive, Impact, Extension/Finish.

Preparation


Looks good so far, shoulders turned, off arm up and across, racquet hand shoulder high, racquet head above wrist, shoulder turned beyond hip (separation angle).

Drive


Still looking good! Buttcap to the ball, elbow externally rotated for stability, hips opening to pull racquet through.

Impact


Still looking good! Elbow stability maintained, internally rotated and in front of the plane of the body, head poised, racquet head slightly below wrist. Liking this (especially as this is off a return!)

Extension/Finish


Pretty text book finish! Good balance, shoulder internal rotation complete, racquet wrapped across, elbow up and away from the body.

So, to summarise - either Mats is way off base or I am missing something!

Thoughts?

*Note: This is off a return so I am not looking at footwork etc

Cheers

sureshs 01-15-2013 11:28 AM

Very timely and great post.

Yesterday, Cliffie said that DP gets extra power on the forehand because he uses a more open face compared to other players. I wanted to be the first to start a DP thread, but you beat me to it.

We want players with diverse styles - everyone playing high-percentage tennis gets boring. Tennis is not like an auto plant where you want everyone working predictably so that your car comes out reliable. There can be only one champion in a tournament, whatever style of tennis is played, and nothing is "on the line" for the viewers.

luvforty 01-15-2013 11:32 AM

you mean mats the big mouth.... he's bit of a sensationalist, which is understandable sitting in that broadcasting booth.

5263 01-15-2013 11:37 AM

Imo he seems to hit the Fh much like a server using the waiter position,
not leading with the edge enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...5GH9spSa8#t=2s

dominikk1985 01-15-2013 11:40 AM

His FH is a very good stroke.

it looks a little WTA style because it is not as spinny and he has a quite vertical racket compared to the very closed/pronated takeback that most ATP players use but this only shows how meaningless those details are for getting power.

What mats is referring too is probably that JMDP doesn't use as much hips and legs like other players. that is just natural for tall athletes. just compare randy johnson to tim lincecum. people say if randy would wind up like tim he would throw 115.

however that just doesn't work. tall guys use the kinetic chain too but they do rely more on their levers than a super quick hip turn (like agassi for example). they just cannot turn that quick but that doesn't mean their legs and hips don't generate a lot of energy.

It is just that their "engine" works more like a truck engine with a large gear (long arms) while short guys like lincecums engine works more like a fast spinning race engine.

sureshs 01-15-2013 11:41 AM

He is more about flat and side spin, than top spin. Real men (tall and strong) can afford to do such things, while the short ones like Fed and Nadal have to rely on top spin.

OK, above was an exaggeration, no need to get worked up about it.

luvforty 01-15-2013 11:43 AM

wow, just wow.

what happened to 'you can't argue with success'... anybody has the balls to criticize that FH, buy a hit with JM, and get blown off the court.

and yes, that includes Mats.

sureshs 01-15-2013 11:45 AM

But note that he had to have wrist surgery. Again, as with Nadal, we don't know cause and effect, but it is a data point.

bradsm01 01-15-2013 11:46 AM

Ash, what do you mean "elbow internally rotated for stability" in your second picture? I have been video taping my forehand, and my elbow is what I bring back first and is up higher than DP, Fed, Joker, etc... I also think I take it back further than the plane of my body. Do you think that a high elbow which is pulled back further than the plane of the body adds to instability and inconsistency? All comments appreciated. Thanks

President 01-15-2013 11:47 AM

I agree with dominik, I think Mats is referring to Del Potro sort of "arming" the shot. But other tall players like Berdych do the same thing, so it seems to be natural for those of that height. Del Potro hits the forehand harder than ANYONE else in the game too, so its a bit of a ridiculous statement.

julian 01-15-2013 11:51 AM

I apologize for a link-I am on a tennis court
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith (Post 7122803)
*Warning: Big first post!

This thread has been inspired by none other than Mats Wilander...

Watching "Game, Set and Mats" on Eurosport (for our friends over the pond it's Eurosports highlights show) and Mats made some "interesting" comments about JMDP's forehand...

"If he hit it properly he could hit it twice as hard, well twice is an exaggeration, but he could hit it much harder with proper technique. It's definitely not the technique you want in the modern game"

So this got me thinking, whilst JMDP's forehand may look a little different how does he fare in the 4 key positions; Preparation, Drive, Impact, Extension/Finish.

Preparation


Looks good so far, shoulders turned, off arm up and across, racquet hand shoulder high, racquet head above wrist, shoulder turned beyond hip (separation angle).

Drive


Still looking good! Buttcap to the ball, elbow internally rotated for stability, hips opening to pull racquet through.

Impact


Still looking good! Elbow stability maintained, internally rotated and in front of the plane of the body, head poised, racquet head slightly below wrist. Liking this (especially as this is off a return!)

Extension/Finish


Pretty text book finish! Good balance, shoulder internal rotation complete, racquet wrapped across, elbow up and away from the body.

So, to summarise - either Mats is way off base or I am missing something!

Thoughts?

*Note: This is off a return so I am not looking at footwork etc

Cheers

Please see
part 7 of .....
Del Potro is FHT-3

Ash_Smith 01-15-2013 12:07 PM

^^^Julian - you refer to that website a lot - is it yours?

Note - in the image sequence above JMDP has a bent elbow structure as opposed to the straight arm shown in the blog.

5263 01-15-2013 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by President (Post 7122897)
Del Potro hits the forehand harder than ANYONE else in the game too, so its a bit of a ridiculous statement.

Does he have the fastest Fh? I don't think so, but there seem to be various
claims of records.
Imo it's not ridiculous at all to think that Del Po could improve his Fh and clearly,
hitting the fastest Fh (if he has) is not anything like having the best overall
Fh.
His Fh does meet the modern standards, but imo his style is not optimal, even
for a big guy and could possibly bigger with better margin as well.
just one persons thoughts...

5263 01-15-2013 12:11 PM

anyone have a link to a good HD x ct Fh by Del po?

Ash_Smith 01-15-2013 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradsm01 (Post 7122893)
Ash, what do you mean "elbow internally rotated for stability" in your second picture? I have been video taping my forehand, and my elbow is what I bring back first and is up higher than DP, Fed, Joker, etc... I also think I take it back further than the plane of my body. Do you think that a high elbow which is pulled back further than the plane of the body adds to instability and inconsistency? All comments appreciated. Thanks

Externally* rotated refers to the elbow having rotated down and in towards the hip on the transition into the drive position. If you have an elbow led takeback this is a vital move for stability and consistency, it must also move in front of the plane of the body on route to contact. It can be taken back behind the plane, but should be in front for contact. Many recreational players have a "flying elbow", in other words the elbow doesn't contract into impact and they lose stability.

Hope that makes sense.

luvforty 01-15-2013 12:18 PM

flying elbow like this guy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RS_68gkXHA

dominikk1985 01-15-2013 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5263 (Post 7122958)
Does he have the fastest Fh? I don't think so, but there seem to be various
claims of records.
Imo it's not ridiculous at all to think that Del Po could improve his Fh and clearly,
hitting the fastest Fh (if he has) is not anything like having the best overall
Fh.
His Fh does meet the modern standards, but imo his style is not optimal, even
for a big guy and could possibly bigger with better margin as well.
just one persons thoughts...

Fastest not sure (who cares) but when we talk fastest average velocity DP is certainly up there. a lot of guys can once in a while hit that 100+ FH but DP can consistently spank that ball hard without a lot of errors. that is a big strength.

It looks like he is arming the ball a little (as I said before mats was certainly talking about this and not the micro moves of the forearm and wrist that are the only thing discussed here:)) but this impression is likely caused by his height and long swing radius.

to hit a 100 mph FH you need to swing the racket close to 80 mph. you cannot do that just with the arm even if you are 6"6. DP is using some legs and hip/spine rotation or he would not swing as fast.

however at his long swing arc it just doesn't look very fast. berdych is similar. they both have very quiet swings (also because they hit quite flat and thus don't need so much extra RHS like nadal for example) but the ball really jumps off their rackets.

luvforty 01-15-2013 12:20 PM

i always thought 'elbow' in is a SW or W thing... E or C grips, you have to lift elbow to close the racket face.

Ash_Smith 01-15-2013 12:20 PM

^^^Umm no. Brent's elbow is internally rotated, even though it's a higher ball.

dominikk1985 01-15-2013 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith (Post 7123003)
^^^Umm no. Brent's elbow is internally rotated, even though it's a higher ball.

I don't want to smart *** but technically the elbow in is a result of humeral EXTERNAL rotation.

you take the arm back and just like in the transition of an overhead throw the arm first externally rotates (elbow leads arm forearm lays back) which then reverses into internal rotation as the elbow slows down and the forearm whips through. the IR starts between frame 2 and 3 of your sequence and the ER before that is an important loading move.


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