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-   -   Swingweight - the most important spec (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=452072)

Power Player 01-23-2013 06:04 AM

Swingweight - the most important spec
 
According to RPNY, swing weight is the most important spec in a racquet in today's game.

Many people advocate using the highest SW possible. This makes sense. The question is really - how high can you go?

The next question is - how good is your technique? Or more like - how loose is your arm? I feel like the only way to use a higher SW racquet is with a loose arm. You have to commit to this style of hitting, but it is how the best players hit. If anyone has gotten this going, they will feel it - the louder, richer crack of the ball and the effortless power you get from using your core and keeping your arms as relaxed as possible.

Once you get to that point the final challenge is what weight is ideal for keeping your contact point consistent. By that I mean, what weight helps you make contact without flopping your wrist and losing your contact point?

I think if that gets dialed in, you may find your ideal SW is higher than you think. Or maybe not. I am still messing with it. It is safe to say that at 331, I feel I can go higher. So I plan to hop it up to ~345 and see if I can handle that.

The best way to figure this stuff out so far for me is to have 2 identical racquets and a go to string setup. Use the same string and tension and keep one racquet stock and the other as your experiment.

The goal for me is to get a SW that helps me stay in control on my swing, but also does not tire me out over the match. Sometimes with lighter sticks it can be tempting to over-swing in pressure situations.

If anyone has done this, feel free to chime in.

My main point is that I believe most racquet makers know rec players arm the ball too much and therefore keep the SWs around 330 or less. It also is not a must, so many players with good technique simply may prefer a lower SW.

This is all an experiment for me. What I am looking for is a heavier SW to keep my swing more relaxed and also to pull my racquet even deeper when I drop the racquet on serve.

I have played specced out sticks with pro level SWs, and there was a lot of things I really liked about the racquets set up that way. I believe a more realistic weight for me is probably around 345/345 for weight/SW, but even that could be too heavy or too light. I will need to experiment over some time and see how it goes.

klementine79 01-23-2013 06:11 AM

Agree. Piggy backin' a bit here....

I've noticed it's also more beneficial to gradually increase swing/static weight. Makes adjustment 10x easier and you won't lose any shots.

It all depends on how much you play and who you play (maybe even more important). I'd rather play someone better than me, once a week, than someone equal/lesser than me five times a week.

But, nice write-up. Good points.

Power Player 01-23-2013 06:21 AM

Yeah man, these are all key points. If you can't get ready and hit the ball in time, then there is no point in having a higher SW.

I know some people here advocate super high ones above 360. But when you look at pro specs for males they can vary depending on the player. Murray had a massive 400 plus SW, but I noticed he dropped it down a little and that allowed him to hit more aggressive and was when he won the USO.

So going really high is not optimal all the time. I am going to jump ~10 SW points at a time.

bluegrasser 01-23-2013 06:29 AM

I love a heavier SW ( 11.6 +) when just hitting from baseline for a workout, but being older & playing quite a bit of doubs, the maneuverability & fatigue becomes an issue. Then on the flip side, the lighter frames get knocked around on the return and nothing behind it on the groundies, also the serve it's hard to generate pace. This dilemma drives me nuts.

mikeler 01-23-2013 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluegrasser (Post 7153296)
I love a heavier SW ( 11.6 +) when just hitting from baseline for a workout, but being older & playing quite a bit of doubs, the maneuverability & fatigue becomes an issue. Then on the flip side, the lighter frames get knocked around on the return and nothing behind it on the groundies, also the serve it's hard to generate pace. This dilemma drives me nuts.

Same here. In a long 3 setter, the higher swingweights become a drag on my arm.

movdqa 01-23-2013 06:48 AM

I used to play with a firmer/stiff arm/wrist when using racquets with lower swingweights but have loosened things up going to higher swingweights. I think that watching Federer has made me modify my backhand so that the wrist is looser. This is a hard transition to make because you don't know if your wrist is strong enough to handle it not being completely firm. I think that this style helps a lot of you stand relatively close to the baseline and your opponent hits fairly deep shots to your backhand.

I've been all over the place with swingweights and have tried various Pro setups. Berdych's setup is too much for me. I got used to the 360s but acquired a set of matched frames at 386 and that's what I'm using now. I've made some adjustments at the higher swingweight. The biggest adjustment was on the serve. I can't use as much arm at that swingweight.

I could have just taken some of the lead off those racquets to make them lighter but I like to leave matched sets as I received them.

Anton 01-23-2013 06:58 AM

^taking equal amounts of weight from equal places leaves you with matched rackets.

Power Player 01-23-2013 07:01 AM

Yep, for sure. The secret is to keep the arm really loose. I am finding when I do that, I hit a lot harder with less effort. So basically by raising the SW, I am going to see if that helps to encourage the loose arm.

drak 01-23-2013 07:04 AM

good topic, I have recently bought the new Wilson 99S and my surgically repaired shoulder (full rotator cuff tear 3-4 yrs ago) is starting to bother me. I do not believe it is a stiffness issues at all, but a swingweight/balance one. The racket feels very plush and I have had this issue with a few other heavier (swingweight) frames the past few years as my shoulder is very sensitive to this. I am in very good shape for am old guy (57) and lift weights as well, so it is not a strength issue. I am not sure I can play with this frame.

jjs891 01-23-2013 07:06 AM

My issue has been that I like higher sw on my bh than I do on my fh, relatively speaking. So it feels like I'm always making a compromise, but I tend to favor lower sw ~330-335 ish to maximize my strength in fh.

Anton 01-23-2013 07:10 AM

On swingweight.

I've been experimenting heavily with customizing various frames. I got a hold of Mantis PRO 295 and I did a polarized setup and added a lot of weight at the base and top loop of the frame for around 12oz total.

The result was ridiculous head speeds at almost zero effort. I just start the stroke and the racket just flies from there, given I relax my arm and let it. In match I can just relax and let the racket fly instead of trying to add something right before the impact. I've done polarization setups before but nothing swung quite like this. I couldn't tame PRO's open stringbed, but that's a second issue.

I've tried to replicate this in some of my other rackets, Ezone xi98 and Bio 300 and what I find is getting result like this requires VERY careful weight adjustments - a gram too much and the load up gets a bit slow, a gram too little and the racket doesn't carry through the stroke optimally.

So I find that swingweight is not really the defining factor, but rather swing weight for particular weight distribution.

movdqa 01-23-2013 07:24 AM

> taking equal amounts of weight from equal places leaves you
> with matched rackets.

Well, the lead is under the Cap Grommets so it would mean replacing those and the lead under the grommets isn't the cleanest job in the world so taking off one strip from each racquet wouldn't necessarily result in the same results. The racquets as they are are matched for weight, sw, and balance and I'd like to leave them that way. I spent a lot of time trying to decide on whether or not to buy them because the SW was so high. There are many that bought these that returned them or sold them again because they were too heavy. They are know as the "Stein" frames.

> I've done polarization setups before but nothing swung quite
> like this. I couldn't tame this open stringed, but that's a
> second issue.

Polarized is definitely the way to go on the heavier stuff if you want to do the relaxed arm/wrist thing. It feels easier to brush the head up than having the mass more evenly distributed.

Power Player 01-23-2013 07:34 AM

Agree. I think polarized is the secret. That is why I prefer a stick like the Blade that already has a pretty high SW and a lower static weight.

corners 01-23-2013 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anton (Post 7153430)
On swingweight.

I've been experimenting heavily with customizing various frames. I got a hold of Mantis PRO 295 and I did a polarized setup and added a lot of weight at the base and top loop of the frame for around 12oz total.

The result was ridiculous head speeds at almost zero effort. I just start the stroke and the racket just flies from there, given I relax my arm and let it. In match I can just relax and let the racket fly instead of trying to add something right before the impact. I've done polarization setups before but nothing swung quite like this. I couldn't tame PRO's open stringbed, but that's a second issue.

What were the final specs of that polarized setup?

JackB1 01-23-2013 09:08 AM

Swingweight is a very personal issue and there is no black and white here. You need to find your personal "cues" as too when a racquets's sw is too high or too low...

For me...

Too high: hard to snap through serves, late a lot on groundstrokes, get tired prematurely in long matches, late on overheads.

Too light: Have to swing faster than comfortable with, too easy to yank racquet off course, no plowthru, lots of twisting on slight mishits, timing is harder.

But yes I agree PP...it IS the most important racquet spec for sure.

Anton 01-23-2013 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corners (Post 7153793)
What were the final specs of that polarized setup?

345g/12.2oz total, 7 points hl.

Not sure about swing weight, but assuming I started out at 300sw, it should be around 340.

ugly duck 01-23-2013 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anton (Post 7153430)
On swingweight.

I've been experimenting heavily with customizing various frames. I got a hold of Mantis PRO 295 and I did a polarized setup and added a lot of weight at the base and top loop of the frame for around 12oz total.

The result was ridiculous head speeds at almost zero effort. I just start the stroke and the racket just flies from there, given I relax my arm and let it. In match I can just relax and let the racket fly instead of trying to add something right before the impact. I've done polarization setups before but nothing swung quite like this. I couldn't tame PRO's open stringbed, but that's a second issue.

I've tried to replicate this in some of my other rackets, Ezone xi98 and Bio 300 and what I find is getting result like this requires VERY careful weight adjustments - a gram too much and the load up gets a bit slow, a gram too little and the racket doesn't carry through the stroke optimally.

So I find that swingweight is not really the defining factor, but rather swing weight for particular weight distribution.

@PP
Interesting thread PP, I'm eager to read about your results and conclusions. I found similar exceptional results if I manage to stay relaxed with my arm...but that's quite dificult when you play against someone who's mixing it up - just as you're saying!

@Anton
I'm also following travlerjams threads about his MGR/I thing and for that it would be very nice to check this value for your modded Mantis, if this doesn't bother you too much - interested if it is pro or contra his theory in your case...

Further info:
I for myself play a PB10mid with about 1g at 9/3 and about 2g at 12. I need the modification because it helps with my elbow (frame is vibrating too much otherwise, no money for a change :-( ). I didn't play around with counterbalancing but felt that I had better timing in stock form. A few days ago I took the spreadsheet of another TTer and found that PB10mid stock is near the by travlerjam suggested value - so I will try counterbalancing when I return to court in April (out due to shoulder problems).

in fact my elbow would like more lead in the hoop but it's getting too slow to stay competitive for my league matches especially against topspinners that throw my timing a little off

corners 01-23-2013 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anton (Post 7153879)
345g/12.2oz total, 7 points hl.

Not sure about swing weight, but assuming I started out at 300sw, it should be around 340.

Just for fun, going with your swingweight estimate of 340, some geeky numbers:

MgR/I = 20.6 (Are you a tall player? Do you use a wristband :) ?)
Polarization index ([SW - M(R - 10)^2] / [(M/6)(6RL - L^2) - MR^2] = 1.30

For comparison, some stock racquets (higher is more polarized):

radical 1,30
wilson ktour 1,25
exo red 1,20
aerpro team gt 1,33
pure storm gt team 1,22
pure storm gt 1,27
pure drive gt 1,34
bio 500 1,25
bio 500t 1,17
bio 300 1,18
speed 300 1,23
extreme mp 1,18
speed elite 1,13 1,07
rebel team 95 1,18
295 vo2max 1,24
290vo2max 1,26 1,19
six one team 1,24
blx pro open 1,22
blx six one tour 1,24
YOUTEK IG Speed 18x20 1,18
2013 BLX Blade 1,23
Rebel 95 w/ stringholes 1,28
Yonex Rdis 200 1,30
Fed's stick 1,24
2013 Head Graphene Speed Pro 1.34

Polarization index formula and most of the above figures for stock racquets from this thread: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=398044

Anton 01-23-2013 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ugly duck (Post 7154069)
@PP
Interesting thread PP, I'm eager to read about your results and conclusions. I found similar exceptional results if I manage to stay relaxed with my arm...but that's quite dificult when you play against someone who's mixing it up - just as you're saying!

@Anton
I'm also following travlerjams threads about his MGR/I thing and for that it would be very nice to check this value for your modded Mantis, if this doesn't bother you too much - interested if it is pro or contra his theory in your case...

Further info:
I for myself play a PB10mid with about 1g at 9/3 and about 2g at 12. I need the modification because it helps with my elbow (frame is vibrating too much otherwise, no money for a change :-( ). I didn't play around with counterbalancing but felt that I had better timing in stock form. A few days ago I took the spreadsheet of another TTer and found that PB10mid stock is near the by travlerjam suggested value - so I will try counterbalancing when I return to court in April (out due to shoulder problems).

in fact my elbow would like more lead in the hoop but it's getting too slow to stay competitive for my league matches especially against topspinners that throw my timing a little off


That's the problem with heavy stock rackets - no room to customize. With over grip you are already at 12.3 oz, assuming spec like TWs average.

I'd try going for lower tension with softer string to improve stability and see if a gram or two at 12 helps anything.

If not then do not despair, PBMID is still a good racket and there is always the absolutely last resort - work on improving your foot work to buy you the time you need for your strokes. ;)

Anton 01-23-2013 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corners (Post 7154125)
Just for fun, going with your swingweight estimate of 340, some geeky numbers:

MgR/I = 20.6 (Are you a tall player? Do you use a wristband :) ?)
Polarization index ([SW - M(R - 10)^2] / [(M/6)(6RL - L^2) - MR^2]) = 1.30

For comparison, some stock racquets (higher is more polarized):

radical 1,30
wilson ktour 1,25
exo red 1,20
aerpro team gt 1,33
pure storm gt team 1,22
pure storm gt 1,27
pure drive gt 1,34
bio 500 1,25
bio 500t 1,17
bio 300 1,18
speed 300 1,23
extreme mp 1,18
speed elite 1,13 1,07
rebel team 95 1,18
295 vo2max 1,24
290vo2max 1,26 1,19
six one team 1,24
blx pro open 1,22
blx six one tour 1,24
YOUTEK IG Speed 18x20 1,18
2013 BLX Blade 1,23
Rebel 95 w/ stringholes 1,28
Yonex Rdis 200 1,30

Polarization index formula and most of the above figures for stock racquets from this thread: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=398044

No rubber band, 175 lbs 5'11"

Interesting exercise but I think it gives a guesstamation at best because everyone has different bio-mechanics (and rubber bands).

At the end of the day you gotta swing it to find out if it works for you.


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