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-   -   Player self rated too high - what now? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=452480)

beernutz 01-25-2013 12:47 PM

Player self rated too high - what now?
 
A player at my club who is mid-thirties and in good shape and who had played high school tennis started back playing last year after a long absence and then at the end of 2012 started playing league, self-rating as a 4.0. I think he decided to self-rate at this level mostly because he got some bad advice about what level he played at and somewhat because he thinks he is better than he really is. He played one Fall 4.0 season and did not have good results even after taking several months before he started league to get his strokes back. His league scores were:
6-1, 6-0 #1 Doubles
6-1, 6-2 #1 Doubles
6-0, 6-1 #2 Doubles
6-0, 6-0 #2 Singles (the guy he played is a really good 4.0)

After those results he wasn't invited to play again on our club's 4.0 team and he is pretty bummed about tennis in general. I'd hate to see him quit league play altogether but I don't have any good advice for him either. I did mention to him that he might consider some flex league play. Does he have any other options?

schmke 01-25-2013 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beernutz (Post 7164699)
A player at my club who is mid-thirties and in good shape and who had played high school tennis started back playing last year after a long absence and then at the end of 2012 started playing league, self-rating as a 4.0. I think he decided to self-rate at this level mostly because he got some bad advice about what level he played at and somewhat because he thinks he is better than he really is. He played one Fall 4.0 season and did not have good results even after taking several months before he started league to get his strokes back. His league scores were:
6-1, 6-0 #1 Doubles
6-1, 6-2 #1 Doubles
6-0, 6-1 #2 Doubles
6-0, 6-0 #2 Singles (the guy he played is a really good 4.0)

After those results he wasn't invited to play again on our club's 4.0 team and he is pretty bummed about tennis in general. I'd hate to see him quit league play altogether but I don't have any good advice for him either. I did mention to him that he might consider some flex league play. Does he have any other options?

When were these matches played? If they were before 11/1 he should have received a C rating for year-end 2012, if they were after, they should be used for his year-end 2013 rating and he should get a C then.

Now, based on those results, his C rating very well could be 3.5 (but it all depends on his partner and opponents of course) so one course of action is to just wait for that and then play 3.5 in 2014. Or, if you have early start leagues and early start ratings for them, he may be able to play at his new level sooner.

Of course, if his partner/opponents were such that his dynamic rating is still above 3.5, he needs to play more matches to convince the computer he is a 3.5.

asimple 01-25-2013 01:11 PM

I think you can appeal a self rating. I did exactly the same thing as he did coming back after 10 years off thinking I would be able to play again. Little did I know 80 pounds and being in your 40s does make a difference. My appeal was unfortunately denied although they did consider the situation and I was probably more of a borderline case than this guy is.

gmatheis 01-25-2013 02:13 PM

Have him email the local league coordinator for help. I forget who I had to contact but I went through this process myself when I got into league tennis.

He will have to make a case that he overestimated his ability, back it up with evidence as to why he believes this to be true as well as his overall tennis experience and ask to be rated a 3.5

I was successful and got dropped down, was still a "self rate" though so you are still subject to the 3 strike rule.


Here's an example of how I made my case:

Dear Sir or Madam,
I recently joined USTA to play league tennis and went through your self rate process. Unfortunately I have overestimated my ability as in the matches I have played I have been unable to win as many as 3 games in a single set and most of my sets I lost at 6-0.

I did play tennis in high school, however my school was not strong and we never made it to post season play. Since then I had not played for 8 years.

I honestly do not feel I can be competitive at 4.0 as my record shows. Furthermore I was not even asked to play on my club's 4.0 team as they feel I am not ready for that level.

I ask that you re-self rate me as a 3.5 please.

Thank You

Spokewench 01-25-2013 02:38 PM

He should try to appeal his rating on the computer - he may be within the numbers to allow the computer to drop him down (assuming he has a C rating)
If not, have him obtain the appeal form (there is a form) from his league coordinator or the section and have him file an appeal. This will go to the appeals committee and they will look at it to see if he is truly a 3.5. If they cannot determine this and do not want to go against the computer they will tell him to play a bit more in leagues to see if tennis link will drop him down next year.

vandre 01-25-2013 03:46 PM

i was a computer rated 4.0 due to the fact i played 3 seasons of d3 tennis in college before a ten year layoff. i wasn't allowed to register for a 3.5 league until i got 3 pros i'd hit with to email the usta coordinator. after all that even, i'm still a mediocre 3.5 as i've never dominated in any 3.5 league i've played in. the point is, the computer sucks and self-rating is problematic. if this player could enlist the help of some teaching pros, that might help. sure seemed to in my case.

off topic, but why do usta bumps only go up and not down? they always expect you to get better but they don't think you'd ever get any worse. then again, the friggin' sandbaggers would be all over that if they did. okay. forget i asked! :twisted:

Topaz 01-25-2013 03:58 PM

They go both ways...up and down.

gmatheis 01-25-2013 04:13 PM

Forgot to mention that my appeal took 3-5 weeks and also that they never notified me that my appeal was granted ... i just happened to check my rating in tennislink one day and saw that it went through.

beernutz 01-25-2013 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schmke (Post 7164756)
When were these matches played? If they were before 11/1 he should have received a C rating for year-end 2012, if they were after, they should be used for his year-end 2013 rating and he should get a C then.

Now, based on those results, his C rating very well could be 3.5 (but it all depends on his partner and opponents of course) so one course of action is to just wait for that and then play 3.5 in 2014. Or, if you have early start leagues and early start ratings for them, he may be able to play at his new level sooner.

Of course, if his partner/opponents were such that his dynamic rating is still above 3.5, he needs to play more matches to convince the computer he is a 3.5.

They were played between 10/9 and 12/7/2012, 10/16 and 11/27 were the two middle matches. I just checked and he is still self rated so apparently he did not play enough to be computer rated at 12/31/2012.

Thanks, it seems he just needs to find a 4.0 team that will take him on so he can lose enough to generate a 3.5 computer rating for 2013.

beernutz 01-25-2013 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmatheis (Post 7164984)
Have him email the local league coordinator for help. I forget who I had to contact but I went through this process myself when I got into league tennis.

He will have to make a case that he overestimated his ability, back it up with evidence as to why he believes this to be true as well as his overall tennis experience and ask to be rated a 3.5

I was successful and got dropped down, was still a "self rate" though so you are still subject to the 3 strike rule.


Here's an example of how I made my case:

Dear Sir or Madam,
I recently joined USTA to play league tennis and went through your self rate process. Unfortunately I have overestimated my ability as in the matches I have played I have been unable to win as many as 3 games in a single set and most of my sets I lost at 6-0.

I did play tennis in high school, however my school was not strong and we never made it to post season play. Since then I had not played for 8 years.

I honestly do not feel I can be competitive at 4.0 as my record shows. Furthermore I was not even asked to play on my club's 4.0 team as they feel I am not ready for that level.

I ask that you re-self rate me as a 3.5 please.

Thank You

Thanks, that is a great idea! I will talk to him about this possibility the next time we see eqch other.

beernutz 01-25-2013 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmatheis (Post 7165273)
Forgot to mention that my appeal took 3-5 weeks and also that they never notified me that my appeal was granted ... i just happened to check my rating in tennislink one day and saw that it went through.

Thanks again, I will make a note of this and remind him to check tennislink regularly if he files an appeal.

schmke 01-25-2013 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beernutz (Post 7165539)
They were played between 10/9 and 12/7/2012, 10/16 and 11/27 were the two middle matches. I just checked and he is still self rated so apparently he did not play enough to be computer rated at 12/31/2012.

Thanks, it seems he just needs to find a 4.0 team that will take him on so he can lose enough to generate a 3.5 computer rating for 2013.

The USTA year for NTRP ratings is November thru October, so it sounds like he is stuck in the worst situation for his 4 matches. He had 2 before the end of October, not enough to get a C rating for 2012 year-end, and he also only has 2 in the 2013 year, not enough to be rated. So he likely needs to get at least one more match in before the end of October.

beernutz 01-26-2013 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandre (Post 7165185)
i was a computer rated 4.0 due to the fact i played 3 seasons of d3 tennis in college before a ten year layoff. i wasn't allowed to register for a 3.5 league until i got 3 pros i'd hit with to email the usta coordinator. after all that even, i'm still a mediocre 3.5 as i've never dominated in any 3.5 league i've played in. the point is, the computer sucks and self-rating is problematic. if this player could enlist the help of some teaching pros, that might help. sure seemed to in my case.

off topic, but why do usta bumps only go up and not down? they always expect you to get better but they don't think you'd ever get any worse. then again, the friggin' sandbaggers would be all over that if they did. okay. forget i asked! :twisted:

I think lessons would be a great idea for this guy but I'm not sure how to suggest it to him without insulting him and I don't know his financial situation either.

He takes huge swings on every shot with his forehand--warm ups, second serves, every shot is big, and when he connects it is a nice looking shot. Unfortunately he can't hit more than about two in a row before he makes a UE and his backhand is a worse liability. I know when we spoke after playing a social set a week ago he was really down about his league experience. Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

beernutz 01-26-2013 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spokewench (Post 7165045)
He should try to appeal his rating on the computer - he may be within the numbers to allow the computer to drop him down (assuming he has a C rating)
If not, have him obtain the appeal form (there is a form) from his league coordinator or the section and have him file an appeal. This will go to the appeals committee and they will look at it to see if he is truly a 3.5. If they cannot determine this and do not want to go against the computer they will tell him to play a bit more in leagues to see if tennis link will drop him down next year.

Thanks. I'm going to suggest that to him this morning if he shows up for the Saturday hit around.

IA-SteveB 01-26-2013 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asimple (Post 7164796)
I think you can appeal a self rating. I did exactly the same thing as he did coming back after 10 years off thinking I would be able to play again. Little did I know 80 pounds and being in your 40s does make a difference. My appeal was unfortunately denied although they did consider the situation and I was probably more of a borderline case than this guy is.

I tried this when my self rate application was set to 3.5 when I was getting registered for my first USTA tournament. I appealed it and I was denied because I was a college athlete in swimming. :) I played one year of HS tennis and didn't play again until I was 39, now 40.

The appeal process is easy and I got a detailed answer back from a real person. It just wasn't the answer I expected with a limited resume. It all worked out and I can easily hang in the upper half of the 3.5 group at the club. I have a lot of work ahead to get to 4.0. The funny thing about the whole self rate experience is that even though I was self rated at 3.5, they put me in 3.0 for my first tourney because there was only one other in the draw. 6-1 6-1 later I had a first place umbrella. :)

AtTheNet 01-27-2013 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asimple (Post 7164796)
I think you can appeal a self rating. I did exactly the same thing as he did coming back after 10 years off thinking I would be able to play again. Little did I know 80 pounds and being in your 40s does make a difference. My appeal was unfortunately denied although they did consider the situation and I was probably more of a borderline case than this guy is.

I need to check into this. On the USTA website, it appears that you can only appeal a self-rating upward, which is not what I want. When I joined the USTA last year after a 30-year hiatus from tennis, the lowest self-rating I could take was 3.5, since I played at the high school lever. Reading the rating descriptions, I thought "Hey, how much difference can there be in one-half point?", so self-rated at 4.0. Apparently, quite a bit. After playing in a 4.0 ladder last fall, I don't think I belong there yet. Maybe in another year.

gmatheis 01-27-2013 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtTheNet (Post 7172844)
I need to check into this. On the USTA website, it appears that you can only appeal a self-rating upward, which is not what I want. When I joined the USTA last year after a 30-year hiatus from tennis, the lowest self-rating I could take was 3.5, since I played at the high school lever. Reading the rating descriptions, I thought "Hey, how much difference can there be in one-half point?", so self-rated at 4.0. Apparently, quite a bit. After playing in a 4.0 ladder last fall, I don't think I belong there yet. Maybe in another year.

You can only appeal a self rating upwards ONLINE

To appeal is downwards you have to fill out a form with more detailed explanation and it gets reviewed by some committee... and I cant remember if i emailed it or faxed it somewhere .. it's been a while but I did it successfully ... see above for datails

vandre 01-27-2013 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beernutz (Post 7166476)
I think lessons would be a great idea for this guy but I'm not sure how to suggest it to him without insulting him and I don't know his financial situation either.

He takes huge swings on every shot with his forehand--warm ups, second serves, every shot is big, and when he connects it is a nice looking shot. Unfortunately he can't hit more than about two in a row before he makes a UE and his backhand is a worse liability. I know when we spoke after playing a social set a week ago he was really down about his league experience. Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

the pros i knew from "group lessons/ men's night". i don't know if your place does anything like that but it was a ton cheaper than private lessons. even if you could maybe sweet talk one of the pros into watching the guy for 5 min. maybe that would be enough?

i feel your pain!

SteveI 01-31-2013 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandre (Post 7165185)
i was a computer rated 4.0 due to the fact i played 3 seasons of d3 tennis in college before a ten year layoff. i wasn't allowed to register for a 3.5 league until i got 3 pros i'd hit with to email the usta coordinator. after all that even, i'm still a mediocre 3.5 as i've never dominated in any 3.5 league i've played in. the point is, the computer sucks and self-rating is problematic. if this player could enlist the help of some teaching pros, that might help. sure seemed to in my case.

off topic, but why do usta bumps only go up and not down? they always expect you to get better but they don't think you'd ever get any worse. then again, the friggin' sandbaggers would be all over that if they did. okay. forget i asked! :twisted:

Most folks just leave out the fact that they played college tennis and take a rating their 1st year and are sandbagging to win whatever level team they are on. The key to winning in USTA is find the unrated gems in your section. Too bad so many folks seem to think that is ok.. instead of playing where they belong. Last summer a group in my section of 3.5s that have never played USTA... rated at 3.0 and killed the other teams. Great stuff..not

SwankPeRFection 02-01-2013 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveI (Post 7183162)
Most folks just leave out the fact that they played college tennis and take a rating their 1st year and are sandbagging to win whatever level team they are on. The key to winning in USTA is find the unrated gems in your section. Too bad so many folks seem to think that is ok.. instead of playing where they belong. Last summer a group in my section of 3.5s that have never played USTA... rated at 3.0 and killed the other teams. Great stuff..not

Ya, this isht is going to be coming to an end pretty soon. There are discussions and pressure from members everywhere that if players that are self-rated low and have an amazingly good first year with shutout like scores and achievements, they're going to get suspended or something else will be done with them, possibly fines to their team captains, etc.


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