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-   -   Women's Final Should Have Been Halted (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=452819)

El Diablo 01-27-2013 06:41 PM

Women's Final Should Have Been Halted
 
Li Na told the press that early in the third set when she injured her ankle, her head hit the court and for a moment she blacked out. That, my friends, is called a concussion. That she was allowed to continue running and bouncing around on the court could be construed as gross negligence on the part of the tournament directors, putting her at risk of further neurologic injury. Is there a doctor at courtside? There should be, and he should examine players who fall to the court and hit their heads. A comparable head trauma in any other sport usually puts the athlete out of commission immediately, and subsequently anywhere from one to several weeks.

kaku 01-27-2013 06:47 PM

I thought that they would've checked for a concussion first thing after she told them she hit her head

bluetrain4 01-27-2013 06:49 PM

They would have halted play for an MTO if she asked, but she didn't.

Look, I wanted Li to win, and I like her a lot more than Azarenka, but Azarenka deserved to win. Li came back both times from her rolled ankles/head hitting the ground and moved well, and hit the ball well, but started missing. Azrenka was better.

El Diablo 01-27-2013 06:57 PM

^^ MTO alone would serve no purpose. The match should have been stopped. One doesn't start running around right after a concussion.

librarysteg 01-27-2013 06:59 PM

Are you saying it should have been halted with a forfeiture? I don't think they could have halted it long enough for her to recover from a concussion and then finished it later, that doesn't seem right.

bluetrain4 01-27-2013 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Diablo (Post 7173282)
^^ MTO alone would serve no purpose. The match should have been stopped. One doesn't start running around right after a concussion.


So are you saying that it should have been halted for extended time so she could recover, or that it should have been stopped and Azarenka wins by default because there's too much medical risk in having Li continue?

They don't halt matches for inordinately long periods to let players recover. If they need that much time, they are seriously injured, and the match will end with a retirement or default.

El Diablo 01-27-2013 07:26 PM

^^ The match should have ended and Azarenka declared winner by default. This was a concussion. Head trauma followed by even the briefest blanking out is a concussion. To continue athletic activity at that time or for at least days thereafter is absolutely medically contraindicated.

Moose Malloy 01-27-2013 07:42 PM

I was thinking the same thing as I watched this match. When I woke up the next day, I was hoping I wouldn't see a headline about a dead tennis player(look at what happened to Natasha Richardson & she didn't hit her head on concrete.

The player should have had absolutely no say in whether the match continued or not. Maybe they had trouble understanding her(& vice versa) due to her limited English. I have a feeling she probably didn't mention the 'blackout' thing to them at the time(only to the media afterwards)

Soianka 01-27-2013 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Diablo (Post 7173349)
^^ The match should have ended and Azarenka declared winner by default. This was a concussion. Head trauma followed by even the briefest blanking out is a concussion. To continue athletic activity at that time or for at least days thereafter is absolutely medically contraindicated.

I agree with you. I fell and hit the back of my head like that a few years ago, blacked out, suffered a concussion and was out of it (not knowing where I was) for approximately 20-40 minutes afterwards.

There was a doctor on the court who checked her for signs of a concussion, but you are right blacking out is a definite sign of a concussion and the match should have been stopped.

bluetrain4 01-27-2013 08:01 PM

I didn't even know she blacked out until reading this thread.

What did she say in her interview about what she said to the people on the court? Did she tell them she blacked out? Also, I've read that her English isn't that limited away from the camera (an actual on-camera interview), where she gets nervous. Though she was probably nervous as a full-stadium watched her.

But, honestly, if she didn't say anything, how could anyone know whether to stop the match. And, what do you do if a player says she blacked out but says she wants to play on? Could/should they really have a hardline blackout/default rule?

[Note: None of this conversation is to take anything away from Azarenka. Li appeared to move and hit fine after her events and Azarenka played better. I'm just interested in the issue of what to do in these situations.]

Moose Malloy 01-27-2013 08:16 PM

Quote:

But, honestly, if she didn't say anything, how could anyone know whether to stop the match. And, what do you do if a player says she blacked out but says she wants to play on? Could/should they really have a hardline blackout/default rule?
Doctors stop fights all the time, often with the fighter protesting. Don't see how this is different. Or get her to sign a waiver if she wants to play(I'm half joking, but if something serious did end up happening later, Li Na's husband would probably end up owning the Australian Open)

I had no idea she blacked out until the next day, but saw the fall(as did the doctor I assume) & thought it was a bad idea for the match to continue just on that basis.
Not just because of concussion, there's a lot of scary **** that can happen if you receive any sort of blunt force trauma to the head. And people often get up feeling fine...at first. I felt really uncomfortable watching the rest of that match.

Its weird but I don't think tennis players are protected the same way athletes are in team sports & boxing(where a number of people can just yank you from the game due to safety issues)
They have to decide whether to default, etc(remember Azarenka's concussion at the USO? they waited until she literally collapsed to the ground before calling the match, when they were clearly signs she was impaired before it even started! she fell & hit her head, saw a doctor & still went on court! and stumbled around in a daze for several games. I posted about that at the time as well, wondering what kinds of doctors they employed)

maybe this is another reason on court coaching should be allowed.

SwankPeRFection 01-27-2013 09:32 PM

I'm sorry, am I missing something here? Is Li Na dead right now? Is she in the hospital with complications due to this supposed concussion? If not, then this thread is stupid. Also, having the sensation of blanking out for a split second is not always a concussion. When you get hit hard enough, your eyes dilate for a split second and they stop working. You interpret this as a blanking out for a slip second. That's not the same as a concussion. A concussion is if your brain shifts hard enough in your skull to bruise itself against the wall of the skull.

If she had a concussion, she would have had other issues that would have been evident in her ability to have proper hand/eye coordination after the event. I don't think that happened.

bluetrain4 01-27-2013 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwankPeRFection (Post 7173572)
I'm sorry, am I missing something here? Is Li Na dead right now? Is she in the hospital with complications due to this supposed concussion? If not, then this thread is stupid. Also, having the sensation of blanking out for a split second is not always a concussion. When you get hit hard enough, your eyes dilate for a split second and they stop working. You interpret this as a blanking out for a slip second. That's not the same as a concussion. A concussion is if your brain shifts hard enough in your skull to bruise itself against the wall of the skull.

If she had a concussion, she would have had other issues that would have been evident in her ability to have proper hand/eye coordination after the event. I don't think that happened.

What is the problem? We're debating what the procedure should be in a situation like this. What should the protocol be for head trauma, as rare as it might be in tennis. Some people are positing that she may have had a concussion, others are simply saying that measures should be taken even when there is a traumatic event and only the possibly of something serious.

Moose made reference to actress Natasha Richardson, who hit her head on snow during a beginner ski lesson, appeared fine for hours, and later died of an epidural hemotoma. Of course, now it doesn't appear like Li's injury is that serious, but the point is that you can't always tell right after the head trauma, and because you can't tell, what should be done - should we trust the player to make their own decision to play on, or should the player be urged (or forced) to default as to avoid the risk of something serious happening.

If you think we're making excuses for Li, we're not. If you think we're trying to diminish Azarenka's victory, we're not. We don't need someone to instruct us regarding what to discuss.

SwankPeRFection 01-27-2013 10:27 PM

^^^ Natasha's hit was way worse than what Li Na might have had. Certainly not the same in my book and ages as well as athletic health were also complete opposites.

****, Serena hit herself in the mouth with her racquet... maybe they should have stopped that match too to see if she needed a CT scan or just a new grill.

tata 01-28-2013 12:27 AM

Li Na continued played. To me that's a voluntarily assumption of risk. If she wants to play on then there is nothing they can really do. Especially in front of a 15,000 head crowd.

NamRanger 01-28-2013 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tata (Post 7173778)
Li Na continued played. To me that's a voluntarily assumption of risk. If she wants to play on then there is nothing they can really do. Especially in front of a 15,000 head crowd.



No; fighters fight in front of huge crowds all the time, but when the doctor says it is time to stop, it is time to stop. Period.

mellowyellow 01-28-2013 04:17 AM

Why are we comparing contact sports with tennis? End thread.

tennis_ocd 01-28-2013 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NamRanger (Post 7173788)
No; fighters fight in front of huge crowds all the time, but when the doctor says it is time to stop, it is time to stop. Period.

The topic could be interesting given a player who wanted to continue a match against common and sound medical advice - dizzyness, chest pains, blurred vision, breathing difficulties, etc.

In this match, and on tv, I don't think Li Na remotely exhibited anything that would lead a referee to stop a fight.

THUNDERVOLLEY 01-28-2013 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tata (Post 7173778)
Li Na continued played. To me that's a voluntarily assumption of risk.

...and for some insurance policies, the second someone suffers any head trauma, does not seek attention--and continues doing the very thing alleged to cause the trauma (playing tennis), she would not get a dime if something worse occured.


Quote:

If she wants to play on then there is nothing they can really do.
...which invalidates this thread as the officials did not stop her from playing, as they--after attending to Na--did not think she was in any danger. Moreover, as you point out, she continued to play, after such a potentially dangerous accident.

There was no common sense at play from either party.

However, if the genesis of this is yet another excuse for Li Na's defeat, it is a poor excuse, as Azarenka was picking apart Li Na's game before any of the accidents.

El Diablo 01-28-2013 04:40 AM

SwankPeRFidious
One of us has extensive training in clinical neurology, and I don't think it's you. No, there can be initially subtle changes in cognitive or motor ability, memory, vision (visual cortex being at the posterior of the brain) or other neurologic function that aren't immediately obvious. And the indivdual may be at risk for further injury for a few weeks while the contusion heals.


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