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-   -   Vince Spadea's tips on FH and Serve (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=453098)

boramiNYC 01-30-2013 12:03 AM

Vince Spadea's tips on FH and Serve
 
http://youtu.be/cUSpsyNXEXE?t=10m5s

Interesting how much he emphasizes the 'through' component on FH. I guess the conventional teaching must have been really ingrained in him. :)

He also emphasizes 'through' component on serves and I have to agree. People are so focused about the spin on their serves they tend to forget the importance of the 'through' component. He mentions even on 2nd serves the 'through' component should be the major focus.

luvforty 01-30-2013 04:00 AM

' I don't like Novak's ..... '

I turned it off right there.

charliefedererer 01-30-2013 08:22 AM

Some find Vince entertaining.
(But not everyone is entertained by a clown.)

And he does make the point of hitting through the ball that you mention, he just doesn't give much insight into how to do it.


You may be interested in hearing from a real student of the game, and a fine teacher - Pat Dougherty, the Bollettieri Camp "Serve Doctor".
Forehand Leverage, Contact Zone and Alignment to the Ball http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZqhHdmqSPQ

In the above forehand video he demonstates the great long contact point that you need, even with a pronounced low to high swing, and even with a windshield wiper motion.


(Vince mentions Fed's forehand as an example of hitting through the zone. He does, but so do all the pros, even though the "bent arm" forehand of Djoker, Murray, etc. predominates on the tour, as well as at you local courts.)


If you watched the Australian Open (or any match), you saw how even Fed hits most of his forehands with a pronounced low to high motion - but obviously he is moving the head of the racquet through a fairly long hitting zone as contact is made.

It's just that the head is moving so fast that on TV, or even in the rapid action photos of his forehand below, the human eye just can not see the real motion going on:



In the above photo sequences, only the middle one is where he flattens the ball out (the telltale sign is the racquet on follow through finishes only about shoulder height) going for a winner (usually only after a carefully constructed point.)

In the upper sequences he hits his "typical" rally shot of a waist high ball, with his follow through well above the shoulder.

And in the lower sequence he hits a low ball, again with the pronounced "low to high" swing bringing the racquet well above the shoulder.


But even though we are missing the side views to show it, I can assure you he has that long "through component" demonstated by Pat Dougherty in his video.


_____________________


As for the serve, many hit their second serves without pronating.

You need to pronate on the second serve to have that "pop" as well as well as the spin.

And here is the key: you've got to get the racquet well to the right side of the body on the second serve.

Too many have the racquet drop in the middle of their back so as they bring the racquet up they just brush up on the ball.
They can't pronate because it just is not possible to pronate right to left if you start in the middle of your back, rather than well to the right side of your body.



In the above great stop action kick serve sequence Toly has posted here before, you can see how far to the right Sam Stosur has her racquet in pic1 - and how she maintains the racquet well to the right side through pic 7 as she aims the butt of the racquet at the ball. (She is bringing the butt of the racquet up at the ball almost as if she is going to spear it!)

Once the arm is fully extended at the elbow (pic 9),
the next major motion is "pronation" as she moves the racquet head from right to left in pics 10-16.
That right to left movement (pronation) is the "slap" which really gives the "pop" on the ball.

Notice that during the same pics of 9-16 that the racquet head is also rising, and it is this "low to high" motion that will produce the spin on the ball.

Also notice that for any spin or kick serve the point of ball contact is somewhat lower than on a first serve - it has to be to get that low to high motion.


Do all the above -that's how you get "pop" and "spin" on a second serve.

boramiNYC 01-30-2013 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7179397)
' I don't like Novak's ..... '

I turned it off right there.

He has world class tennis skills and practice with Novak. You gotta give him some respect. don't ya think?

boramiNYC 01-30-2013 09:16 AM

Charlie, appreciate your post.

I bet he can get into details but he had very short time and two tips to give to general population. Maybe he saw a trend of too much spinning the ball without enough 'through'. Whatever the reasoning there must be some value to it since it's from someone who has achieved the worldclass skill level. Just something to think about and maybe such message will stick to people who's overspinning without hitting through the ball. It's all a balance act. I don't believe in one or the other. both through and spin components are valid and essential i believe. It just happens to be the latest tip from a pro to general population.

sureshs 01-30-2013 09:17 AM

Fantastic insights by Spadea. He explains clearly what hitting through the ball means and how important it is - and uses Fed as an example. He knows exactly what he is talking about - the way the modern forehand is hit. "Firm through". 'Firm through does not mean firm across, it means firm through." "Coming across early means leaving the track and derailing the train."

LOL what a blow to the "coaches" here who have been advocating "yanking" and "pulling" and their followers trying to twist everything to see if it fits that description. Wake up guys, listen to modern players who have actually played at a high level, not club-level playing coaches who just want to play with words. Listen to how Spadea admires all the top players - no false dichotomies and strawmen here.

boramiNYC 01-30-2013 09:28 AM

I knew you'd like it, shuresh. :twisted:

Power Player 01-30-2013 09:29 AM

suresh, you jumped on that too hard.

Hitting through the ball (something I do) IS key, but it does not mean that what the coaches are saying is wrong. Vince is saying that rec players are misinterpreting. That is all.

You can hit through the ball and finish across. In fact that is exactly what he says to do in his video.

A lot of players focus on the WW finish, and silly things like that. All that happens naturally if you hit through the ball. The harder you hit, the more you will wipe across on the finish.

Vince is basically saying not to rush the finish, but hit through first.

sureshs 01-30-2013 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boramiNYC (Post 7180029)
I knew you'd like it, shuresh. :twisted:

It is not about whether it is liked or not. It is just how it is. You don't hit 80 mph forehands without substantial forward hitting through. Physics will not allow otherwise.

sureshs 01-30-2013 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Power Player (Post 7180032)
suresh, you jumped on that too hard.

Hitting through the ball (something I do) IS key, but it does not mean that what the coaches are saying is wrong. Vince is saying that rec players are misinterpreting. That is all.

You can hit through the ball and finish across. In fact that is exactly what he says to do in his video.

Yes that is obvious. Didn't you hear him say that it comes across after hitting through? What is your point?

Power Player 01-30-2013 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7180036)
Yes that is obvious. Didn't you hear him say that it comes across after hitting through? What is your point?

My point is that nobody has said different. This video just clicked with you, but it does not go against conventional coaching.

sureshs 01-30-2013 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Power Player (Post 7180043)
My point is that nobody has said different. This video just clicked with you, but it does not go against conventional coaching.

Correct. It goes against those who advocate yanking and pulling in an abrupt manner just before impact.

Power Player 01-30-2013 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7180046)
Correct. It goes against those who advocate yanking and pulling in an abrupt manner just before impact.

I have not read many who say that, but on this forum everything is over analyzed to death so I don't doubt it.

To me, the key part of what he is saying is the 5 o clock take-back. If you do that every time, your timing will get better fast.

Fearsome Forehand 01-30-2013 09:42 AM

Hitting through the ball. What a concept. :)

Power Player 01-30-2013 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fearsome Forehand (Post 7180064)
Hitting through the ball. What a concept. :)

It's a great detail though. I was always a huge spin hitter, but the nuance of hitting through the ball and rolling over too much is worth addressing. It is really easy to fall into the trap of rolling over the ball too much if you hit with a SW or Western grip, so it takes a lot of practice and feel to get that new timing so you hit through and then finish.

WildVolley 01-30-2013 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7179397)
' I don't like Novak's ..... '

I turned it off right there.

I agree with Spadea's assessment. He wasn't saying Novak doesn't hit the ball well, he just thinks his takeback is too big. If I'm teaching someone to play, I'm going to suggest a smaller takeback rather than as big of one as Novak's. But no one is going to claim that it doesn't work for Novak.

The five o'clock take back is the interesting thing in this discussion as well as hitting through the ball on second serves. Spadea doesn't really explain how Sampras and Roddick were able to still get massive spin while hitting through the ball. But Roddick is certainly interesting in that he can bring 110mph and heavy topspin when most other players are only able to hit it about 90mph with equal spin.

Povl Carstensen 01-30-2013 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7180034)
You don't hit 80 mph forehands without substantial forward hitting through.

No one has argued against forward hitting, you made that up. But it can be combined with up as well as across elements. You know, like Nadal and Federer swiping the ball, remember?

Fearsome Forehand 01-30-2013 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Power Player (Post 7180083)
It's a great detail though. I was always a huge spin hitter, but the nuance of hitting through the ball and rolling over too much is worth addressing. It is really easy to fall into the trap of rolling over the ball too much if you hit with a SW or Western grip, so it takes a lot of practice and feel to get that new timing so you hit through and then finish.

I hear ya. In my case, I can tell what I am doing wrong in tennis, or golf, by the end result. If my strokes lack pace, I know I am spinning too much and hitting through too little. Sometimes I intentionally load up the top spin just because it gives a lot of people fits.

Would Spadea tell Rafa to hit through more on his FH? :)

mbm0912 01-30-2013 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7179397)
' I don't like Novak's ..... '

I turned it off right there.

That makes two of us..

Povl Carstensen 01-30-2013 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fearsome Forehand (Post 7180130)
Would Spadea tell Rafa to hit through more on his FH? :)

Yes, it is against the laws of physics.


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