Talk Tennis

Talk Tennis (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php)
-   Tennis Tips/Instruction (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
-   -   topspin is over rated (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=453327)

luvforty 02-01-2013 05:34 AM

topspin is over rated
 
if TonLars, arguably the best player on TT can draw even with the WTA elites, then it's pointless for the rest of us trying to model our games after the ATP (which seems to be what we are doing with all the males players mentioned).

the rec game is closer to the WTA than the ATP.... it's only $199 to buy a powerful tweener and start whacking flat balls and get penetration..... costs much more (if even possible) to get foot speed and fitness to play the spin game.

topspin is over rated.

rkelley 02-01-2013 06:13 AM

I would disagree that topspin is overrated.

Up until two years ago I hit hard and flat. I could hang in rallies with very good players because of the pace and penetration of my shots, especially my forehand. However this required me keep the net clearance low, dtl shots were hard, and I had to pull back on lower balls to keep them in. Ultimately I often lost the rallies against better players due to an unforced error because they could usually deal with the pace. My shots might force conservative placement from them, taking me dtl off a ripped cc forehand was tough, but they could hit back hard cc and wait for another opportunity, or for me to make an error.

Finally I hit with a guy who just blew me off the court with pace, spin, and consistency. Occasionally when I ripped one I could hurt him a little, but mostly it was me being blown back by pace, spin kicking balls up to my head and to the side, and consistency. That was when I decide I need to find out what all of this modern tennis thing was about.

Learned the modern forehand, the modern bh slice, and made some improvements on my 2hbh. Two years into this change and I haven't lost pace, but I've gained a bunch of spin. I can hit with high rhs from anywhere on the court. I can kick balls up to my opponents head. I can hang in, and win rallies that never would have been possible two years ago - at least not at my talent level and the amount of time I can devote to practice. I'm way more consistent and hit bigger than I used to.

So I'd say, as a guy, use that extra strength, learn the modern fh, and rip those balls with the extra margin. Not saying women can't do this too, but with good technique guys can create so much rhs that you're never going to be able to use it all without the spin. The ball just won't stay in. So use it to generate the spin.

Greg G 02-01-2013 06:27 AM

Thanks rkelley! That means there's hope for me yet :)

chico9166 02-01-2013 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7184077)
if TonLars, arguably the best player on TT can draw even with the WTA elites, then it's pointless for the rest of us trying to model our games after the ATP (which seems to be what we are doing with all the males players mentioned).

the rec game is closer to the WTA than the ATP.... it's only $199 to buy a powerful tweener and start whacking flat balls and get penetration..... costs much more (if even possible) to get foot speed and fitness to play the spin game.

topspin is over rated.

Disagree. The vast majority of club tennis is an error fest. The last thing you want to tell the general public is to whack flat balls....Besides it's not like the club level game is a battle of physical attrition. There is more energy expended picking up the balls after the two shot rallies...topspin to keep the ball in play, and then riskier shots as skill set improves..that's the simple equation.

sureshs 02-01-2013 08:28 AM

What is the reasoning behind using TonLars as an example? Is he supposed to be an example of a high level male with topspin who cannot beat the WTA elite? Or something else?

charliefedererer 02-01-2013 08:31 AM

Topsin is underrated.

10isfreak 02-01-2013 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7184077)
if TonLars, arguably the best player on TT can draw even with the WTA elites, then it's pointless for the rest of us trying to model our games after the ATP (which seems to be what we are doing with all the males players mentioned).

To answer this one, I will tell you that I could not care the least bit. When we look for a model, for a basis upon which build an understanding of tennis strokes, we do not care about what can be achieved... we care about the knowledge we can draw from studying them.

Once you understand what they are doing, then you can start thinking about what might fit recreational tennis and what can't. But until and if we get there, we're still studying the best to understand how the best possible strokes are produced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7184077)
The rec game is closer to the WTA than the ATP.... it's only $199 to buy a powerful tweener and start whacking flat balls and get penetration..... costs much more (if even possible) to get foot speed and fitness to play the spin game.

From a personal standpoint, my game got stable and consistent (and easy to get back to after a long pause) once I understood what enabled me to get the most spin out of my strokes. I could attack more easily, stay in rallies and vary my trajectories without problem... even after a week or two off the court, certain key aspects of my new forehand form made it a TON easier to get back to a decent level quickly. Last summer, I barely played, but during my last encounter, I was hitting big -- and with consistency.

Kramer once said that spin is what controls the ball. It's very hard to lob a ball in a specific spot, just as is chipping it to feed a beginner an easy ball. However, once you get some pace going and add spin, it becomes easier to aim since you have much fewer things to adjust: you do not adjust your swing speed, nor your swing path much at all... it simply requires that you make the right type of contact to get the ball where you want.

Of course, this is true only if you know how to make it happen.

10isfreak 02-01-2013 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chico9166 (Post 7184345)
Disagree. The vast majority of club tennis is an error fest. The last thing you want to tell the general public is to whack flat balls....Besides it's not like the club level game is a battle of physical attrition. There is more energy expended picking up the balls after the two shot rallies...topspin to keep the ball in play, and then riskier shots as skill set improves..that's the simple equation.

Yes.

Through time and experience, there are players who mature. They stop bashing or junk-balling, getting much more measured and thoughtful in their game play. It doesn't take super-star balls to keep an average 4.0 off the court... just varying slightly the location and the trajectory can inhibit most of his offensive chances.

Hitting top spin at different degrees can then become a key to succeeding for amateurs, until they get very good or unless they are really close to beginners. It becomes important as well when facing excessively defensive or excessively offensive players... in either case, being able to hold on, to be patient and to use the right amount of aggressiveness when required implies owning your strokes and being able to keep the ball in play at a decent pace.

Top spin is misunderstood and underrated. Many people consider hitting heavy spin to be a weapon in an of itself... Even for Nadal, it's not the case. The point is to use it as a way to achieve certain objectives. In Nadal's case, pulling you off the court and retaining consistency. For Federer, spin becomes a variable: you can make flatter or loopier stroke, right in the middle of a rally to force your opponent to remain rigorous in his preparation... tons of players get grooved into facing certain shots and adding a new dimension (such different contact heights, different pace, different spin or forcing them to move forward) can make your standard pattern even more effective while earning a few free points.


Top spin is how you control the court in the modern game... not playing with it is like surrendering the center when playing chess or tipping your opponents when you bluff at poker.

GuyClinch 02-01-2013 09:21 AM

Not some super tennis expert or anything but TonLars sure looks to have some topspin on his strokes.. <g>

The Meat 02-01-2013 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7184077)
if TonLars, arguably the best player on TT.

Wasn't there a guy in the top 400 who used to post here a lot from Croatia or something? Also there is that Peliwo guy

LeeD 02-01-2013 10:15 AM

ClintThompson was arguably the best player to have posted here. Maybe into the top 700. I'm sure some other better players have posted, but not on a regular basis or more than a few posts.
Don't think our Canadian friend HAS any ATP points.
I thought you need to win some matches in Q's before getting even ONE point.
Flat or sidespin CAN work. It worked for JimmyConnors, JohnMcEnroe, BradGilbert, MiraslovMecir. But those guys also hit with topspin when that shot was appropriate.
And they could HANDLE the high topspin shots.
But no pro could make it into the higher ranks without some amount of topspin, if nothing else, for the variety and the rest from perfect posture needed when you hit flat.

always_crosscourt 02-01-2013 10:22 AM

I play heavy topspin and my game works great against pushers, counter-punchers and moonballers, but not so great against consistent ballbashers.

The spin will make the pusher uncomfortable, so he'll hit something very simple to put away. No need to go close to the lines, hit on the rise or even go to the net - they get broken down with spin.

If you want to be very cheap, you can take advantage of the fact that the back fence of rec courts is too close to the baseline, so send very high, heavy and deep balls, and they'll be nigh on unreturnable, as you can make them bounce over the back fence.

LeeD 02-01-2013 10:26 AM

ACC, what level are you?
If you watch the Aussie, most of the top players hit CC only about 60% of the time, the rest DTL.
As for the topspin, I think you play below your own level, not your peers or better players.
As for the backfence, it's regulation at 21'. When you hit your heavy topspin ball to a peer or better player, he only steps forwards into NML and approach volleys, forcing you to scramble full speed just to touch the ball.

always_crosscourt 02-01-2013 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeD (Post 7184673)
ACC, what level are you?
If you watch the Aussie, most of the top players hit CC only about 60% of the time, the rest DTL.
As for the topspin, I think you play below your own level, not your peers or better players.
As for the backfence, it's regulation at 21'. When you hit your heavy topspin ball to a peer or better player, he only steps forwards into NML and approach volleys, forcing you to scramble full speed just to touch the ball.

If you hit your heavy topspin at the baseline, this amazing rec player is going to have to volley a dipper from NML, because the ball is not going to bounce before then.

It's my philosophy to always hit CC - give the initiative to the opponent. If he goes down the line, I'll get to it, and hit it... you guessed it, crosscourt again.

LeeD 02-01-2013 10:32 AM

Tennis is simple, isn't it.
Always hit heavy loop topspin shots crosscourt. And you win Wimbledon!
As for your ignoring my last sentence, that tells your level.

always_crosscourt 02-01-2013 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeD (Post 7184689)
Tennis is simple, isn't it.
Always hit heavy loop topspin shots crosscourt. And you win Wimbledon!
As for your ignoring my last sentence, that tells your level.

I don't know my level. Why have you got some sort of chip on your shoulder? Or you want me to say '3.0' - so you can inflate your e-peen? ******.

And yes, tennis can be as simple as always hit heavy loopy CC - ask Toni Nadal.

LeeD 02-01-2013 11:01 AM

When someone posts that he uses ONE strategy, and ONE only, he/she is opening a question of skill level or the level of his tennis intelligence.

chico9166 02-01-2013 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10isfreak (Post 7184507)
Yes.

Through time and experience, there are players who mature. They stop bashing or junk-balling, getting much more measured and thoughtful in their game play. It doesn't take super-star balls to keep an average 4.0 off the court... just varying slightly the location and the trajectory can inhibit most of his offensive chances.

Hitting top spin at different degrees can then become a key to succeeding for amateurs, until they get very good or unless they are really close to beginners. It becomes important as well when facing excessively defensive or excessively offensive players... in either case, being able to hold on, to be patient and to use the right amount of aggressiveness when required implies owning your strokes and being able to keep the ball in play at a decent pace.

Top spin is misunderstood and underrated. Many people consider hitting heavy spin to be a weapon in an of itself... Even for Nadal, it's not the case. The point is to use it as a way to achieve certain objectives. In Nadal's case, pulling you off the court and retaining consistency. For Federer, spin becomes a variable: you can make flatter or loopier stroke, right in the middle of a rally to force your opponent to remain rigorous in his preparation... tons of players get grooved into facing certain shots and adding a new dimension (such different contact heights, different pace, different spin or forcing them to move forward) can make your standard pattern even more effective while earning a few free points.


Top spin is how you control the court in the modern game... not playing with it is like surrendering the center when playing chess or tipping your opponents when you bluff at poker.

10is,

This is a really good post. I hope those in attendance read and absorb it. Much of my work with students (at least as it pertains to this subject) revolves around tennis in a situational sense... That is, developing a reliable rally ball, (which in my experience is void of enough spin) or varying trajectories, or hell, stepping up and flattening the spin/and or trajectory in offensive situations. (an acquired skill). But yeah, the overwhelming problem at the club level is too low a spin rate.

chico9166 02-01-2013 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeD (Post 7184689)
Tennis is simple, isn't it.
Always hit heavy loop topspin shots crosscourt. And you win Wimbledon!
As for your ignoring my last sentence, that tells your level.

Do you know how preposterous it is for you to compare the skills/strategy of the general public with that of someone who has the potential to win wimbledon? Topspin is a friend of to the average player, and yes, hitting alot of balls crosscourt is a great strategy.

LeeD 02-01-2013 11:15 AM

Do you never watch the Aussie?
If you always hit CC, your opponent STANDS THERE and you hit right to him.
And most rec players hit with slice.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:40 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006 - Tennis Warehouse