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-   -   penetrating slice tips (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=453676)

2ndServe 02-04-2013 05:52 PM

penetrating slice tips
 
are there any good videos of advanced high level slice technique?

LeeD 02-04-2013 06:08 PM

Sorry, I don't know about vids.
A penetrating slice needs to clear the net by about 2', bounce somewhere in NML, then skid off to one side while changing the ball path's direction and speed after bouncing. It can nuetralize most topspin to topspin rallies, IF the slicer can hit passing shots off both sides.
Most top players use a very conti grip, some towards Forehand side, some towards Backhand side of conti. Body needs to be solid, feet closed, aggressively hitting the ball with lots of underspin, and enough pace to be 2' above the net while landing somewhere in NML, the deeper the better usually, except against strong groundstrokers.
Few players use a strong grip for slice. You CAN hit a strong slice shot with an eastern backhand or even SW backhand grip, but it's bounce doesn't seem as different as a topspin stroke, and the opponent doesn't need to vary his prep to return it. Possibly it's because it's hard to slice as hard using a strong grip, which often adds pace to the ball, but not more underspin...which causes the low, off to the side skidding bounce.
Ball speed here is not important because it's the spin that causes the opponent problems. Even against a netperson, ready to volley, and aggressive slice that is low can be a very difficult volley.

Topspin Shot 02-04-2013 06:55 PM

For a penetrating slice, your stroke has to be basically flat. You get the backspin because the ball comes off the court with topspin, which once it hits your racket, is converted into backspin. The effect of the spin off the court is so powerful that the spinniest shot ever measured was a backhand slice (over 5,000 RPMs). Too many players try to chop their slices and as a result pop the ball into the air.

rkelley 02-04-2013 08:02 PM

Here's the vid you need:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuqkkWtq-Lk

Great vid. Watch it and then go out and practice.

_craze 02-04-2013 08:29 PM

A more closed stance is always nice, for starters.

Just about any video with Steffi Graf in it is golden.

2ndServe 02-04-2013 08:50 PM

slow mo edberg slice? interested in his shot and the movement through it.

mntlblok 02-05-2013 08:24 AM

Slicing a high ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rkelley (Post 7192119)
Here's the vid you need:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuqkkWtq-Lk

Great vid. Watch it and then go out and practice.

Excellent. Would also note that the ball Fed is hitting is quite high, and that he manages to get his racket hand "higher" than the contact height of the ball before starting "down". To me, that is key in preventing that shot from "floating" too high and without pace.

More of a "curiosity" thing to me is that they all have the racket face significantly more "open" in the backswing than at contact. I also see that with good volleys, and feel that I hit both those shots better if I consciously make that move - as long as that "closing" of the racket face stops after contact.

mntlblok 02-16-2013 01:53 PM

some Shot Maker inputs for slices
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mntlblok (Post 7192977)
Excellent. Would also note that the ball Fed is hitting is quite high, and that he manages to get his racket hand "higher" than the contact height of the ball before starting "down". To me, that is key in preventing that shot from "floating" too high and without pace.

More of a "curiosity" thing to me is that they all have the racket face significantly more "open" in the backswing than at contact. I also see that with good volleys, and feel that I hit both those shots better if I consciously make that move - as long as that "closing" of the racket face stops after contact.

Played around a bit with the "racket face angle" and "swing path angle" with TW University's "Shot Maker" stroke analysis gadget. Put some of them up on my Flickr site. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalb...th/8480434310/ Any scuba divers out there - especially those who aware of the wonders of the Blue Heron Bridge - might get a kick out exploring said Flickr site. I *also* over-do underwater photography. :mrgreen:

boramiNYC 02-16-2013 04:11 PM

a pure underspin slice is more difficult to deal with IMO. sidespin has its place but for slice it's at cost of underspin. so practice some pure underspin slice that doesn't sit up. and pace is not that important in a good slice.

LeeD 02-16-2013 04:16 PM

On a slice, the angle of sidespin is directly related to the height of the ball at the strikezone.
As a lefty, on low balls, my slices skid severely to the right at the bounce.
On medium high balls, waist to chest, it's almost all backspin with some sidespin to the right.
On higher balls, those over my shoulders, the ball curves and bounces to my LEFT, like a rightie slice serve.
Reverse the curve directions for righties, but the medium high ball is mostly backspin with a little bit of side.

luvforty 02-16-2013 05:11 PM

actually...

the definition of 'penetration' is speed... you can't have a floaty slice that penetrates, even if it spins at 10000 rpm...because after the bounce all that 10000 rpm underspin becomes 50rpm topspin.

and to produce speed is simple, you need the hitting unit of arm/racket moving FORWARD at impact.

mntlblok 02-16-2013 05:14 PM

The old "spiral spin" thing, again
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeD (Post 7218971)
On a slice, the angle of sidespin is directly related to the height of the ball at the strikezone.
As a lefty, on low balls, my slices skid severely to the right at the bounce.
On medium high balls, waist to chest, it's almost all backspin with some sidespin to the right.
On higher balls, those over my shoulders, the ball curves and bounces to my LEFT, like a rightie slice serve.
Reverse the curve directions for righties, but the medium high ball is mostly backspin with a little bit of side.

The curve of the ball in the air is related to sidespin. The direction it "kicks" after the bounce is related to spiral spin. SA calls it rotation around the "Z" axis. (I reckon the other two are "X" and "Y", but I ain't sure how to orient them to know one from the other, but I suspect that the "Y" axis is the one around which sidespin occurs. :)) The height of the ball helps determine whether yer stroke causes clockwise or counterclockwise spiral spin. Just trying to help.:mrgreen:

BTW, I've found *exactly* the same results that you've described - and utilize them regularly on droppers - especially drop *volleys*. I keep meaning to get around to doing a video for youtube. . .

mntlblok 02-16-2013 05:19 PM

Penetration
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7219028)
actually...

the definition of 'penetration' is speed... you can't have a floaty slice that penetrates, even if it spins at 10000 rpm...because after the bounce all that 10000 rpm underspin becomes 50rpm topspin.

and to produce speed is simple, you need the hitting unit of arm/racket moving FORWARD at impact.

Maybe the better term is "aggravation". And, it may even require much more racket head speed than the 65mph of the inputs in order to generate same. My most aggravating slices actually still have backspin on them after the first bounce, and that bounce is extraordinarily low.

luvforty 02-16-2013 06:16 PM

actually - how much top/underspin is there after the bounce is not important, as the rpm will be minimal either way.

i should have said that penetration is a combination of spin and speed before the bounce.... the right combination causes aerodynamic lift (as opposed to a topspin ball), so it makes the ball 'light' with little friction at the bounce, hence the 'skidding'.

aerodynamic lift cannot be achieved with the lack of either the speed or the spin.

mikeler 02-16-2013 06:29 PM

I tend to hit the most penetrating slices when I'm really leaning forward into the ball.

mntlblok 02-17-2013 03:02 AM

Skidding
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7219117)
actually - how much top/underspin is there after the bounce is not important, as the rpm will be minimal either way.

i should have said that penetration is a combination of spin and speed before the bounce.... the right combination causes aerodynamic lift (as opposed to a topspin ball), so it makes the ball 'light' with little friction at the bounce, hence the 'skidding'.

aerodynamic lift cannot be achieved with the lack of either the speed or the spin.

Maybe, then, it is the "skidding" that is seen as (at least a large portion of) the "penetration". The playing surface, I think, is also a major factor in the degree of "skid". I've played on some glass-like indoor hard courts that made "skidders" all but impossible to deal with by someone who wasn't used to playing on same.

Makes sense that the "Magnus effect" would be speed related.

Relinquis 02-17-2013 03:02 AM

- step into the ball, closed stance (i.e. sideways)
- use high takeback, hit across the body to impart both side and backspin
- hit only slightly in front of the body (less in front than in a normal backhand)
- swing non-dominant arm towards the back parallel to the baseline to keep balance

Mahboob Khan 02-17-2013 09:02 AM

There are many slice models at www.tennisplayer.net.

As you drive your topspin backhands also drive your slice BH just that the face of the racket is bit open at contact.

Nostradamus 02-17-2013 09:05 AM

HIT Thru your slice like Ken Rosewall does. It will be Penetrating like Nadal forehand. Just do NOT CHOP like Federer.

luvforty 02-17-2013 09:46 AM

Maylene go back to the kitchen


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