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-   -   To 4.5 Guys: "Get Out And Stay Out!!" (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=453733)

Cindysphinx 02-05-2013 07:15 AM

To 4.5 Guys: "Get Out And Stay Out!!"
 
Of 8.0 mixed, that is.

Now, you 4.5 guys know I love ya, right? You're awesome. You can hit your spots, you can hit wicked slice, you can bewilder the ladies with your spins and pace, you can utterly destroy the serves of pretty much any 4.0 woman.

But OrangePower is totally right. Mixed needs to be changed so you 4.5 guys are not permitted to play 8.0 mixed.

Take last night.

Our 8.0 mixed team had a match. I played Court One with my 4.0 partner, against two 4.0s. What a great match it was! Lots of exciting points and great shots. The guys went at each other, but the ladies got in on the act. The score was 7-5, 6-4.

Ah, but it was a different story on Courts 2 and 3. We fielded to 4.0/4.0 pairs, but our opponents fielded two 4.5/3.5 pairs. Scores were 6-0, 6-0 and 6-3, 6-3.

After my match, we played for fun a bit. My 4.0 partner and I played against the 4.0 guy and the 4.5 guy who handed out the double bagel to my teammates.

It was ridiculous. Even with the 4.5 guy holding back, we stood no chance against him. He was 6'6" tall -- it was like playing Del Potro.

Come on. USTA league tennis is supposed to be competitive, and allowing 4.5 guys in 8.0 mixed defeats that goal. I know 4.0 women who simply will not play mixed anymore for fear of running up against a 4.5 guy. It isn't any fun to get aced all night.

Here's my question. If USTA made a rule change, would 4.5 guys lose out on too many playing opportunities? Does 9.0 mixed even exist most places? Do the same problems exist when 3.5 guys play 6.0 mixed and when 4.0 guys play 7.0 mixed?

Govnor 02-05-2013 07:22 AM

It's tough though, when you need to fill out a team etc. How often does this happen?

travlerajm 02-05-2013 07:42 AM

Welcome to 8.0!

I agree. A 4.5M/3.5W vs. 4.0/4.0 is usually not a fair matchup. And 4.5M/3.5W vs. 4.5W/3.5M is even more one-sided.

On the bright side, you can try 7.0 or 9.0! (Or you can sandbag to get back down to 3.5 and partner up with one of us)

Cindysphinx 02-05-2013 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travlerajm (Post 7192865)
Welcome to 8.0!

I agree. A 4.5M/3.5W vs. 4.0/4.0 is usually not a fair matchup. And 4.5M/3.5W vs. 4.5W/3.5M is even more one-sided.

On the bright side, you can try 7.0 or 9.0! (Or you can sandbag to get back down to 3.5 and partner up with one of us)

Ha!!

The 4.0 ladies I know who played 7.0 mixed with 3.0 guys fell into two categories.

Either their partner was a real 3.0, in which case the match was Xtreme Keepaway. Trouble is, these ladies are solid and consistent and experienced, but they were not athletic enough to play the whole court singlehandedly.

Or their partner was a 3.5 in 3.0 clothing. Trouble is, their matches were deadly dull because they would crush their opponents so badly.

Tell me, though. If you had to give up 8.0 mixed, would it really cut into your tennis opportunities that much?

goober 02-05-2013 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 7192787)
Here's my question. If USTA made a rule change, would 4.5 guys lose out on too many playing opportunities? Does 9.0 mixed even exist most places? Do the same problems exist when 3.5 guys play 6.0 mixed and when 4.0 guys play 7.0 mixed?

We have 9.0 mixed and 10.0 mixed last time I checked. But 4.5s are all over the rosters of the top 8.0 teams. I have said this previously but they really need to change it to straight levels- 4.0 mixed or 4.5 mixed or 7.5 and 8.5 mixed with the rule the female cannot have a lower rating than the male. That would make the matches more competitive and interesting for everybody.

TennisCJC 02-05-2013 08:28 AM

Cindy has a good point. It makes a much better mixed match if the women plays at the same level or even higher than the males in the match.

A 4.5 male and 3.0 women play 8.0 does not seem like a recipe for a good match.

I don't play USTA men's any longer and have never played USTA mixed but I play ALTA high A mixed which is mostly 4.0 with a sprinkling of 4.5 players at position 1 and 2. My female partner is rated 4.5 and my last rating was 4.0. I was rated 4.5 20 years ago but have slowed down since then. It works well as far as ensuring a competitive fun match when the women is rated higher by .5 or at lest equal to the man. Most of our matches are very competitive but probably would suck if played a guy rate 5.5 (2 levels higher than my partner). He would just demolish my partner and I would struggle to keep up with him too.

travlerajm 02-05-2013 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 7192891)
Tell me, though. If you had to give up 8.0 mixed, would it really cut into your tennis opportunities that much?

I played 8.0 USTA in 2013, but I turned down 3 offers to join 4.5M teams and 2 offers to join 4.5M over 40 teams. Why?

The twisted logic works like this:
My work schedule with my med device startup keeps me busy, so I only end up on court about 2-3 times per month. If I joined a 4.5 team, my ego wouldn't be able to take losing matches to guys who I could beat if I played an extra time per week. So then I'd have to play an extra time per week. But then I'd have less time to work on my startup, which could put its success in jeopardy. If my startup fails, I'll be out on the street with no money for court fees. So I make the tough decision to forgo 4.5.

On the other hand, I can win almost every USTA 8.0 match without needing to practice much, since most of my opponents are 4.0/4.0 teams (until you get to sectionals at least).

I do pack a racquet with me whenever I travel (which is often), and I do bring my racquet to the gym with me to hit against the racquetball wall at least once a week - so that my strokes are ready for social tennis (or USTA 8.0) whenever I get the call!

NLBwell 02-05-2013 08:38 AM

Cindy,
Remember, they used to allow 5.0 guys with 3.0 women in 8.0 mixed. The woman would play one alley and the guy would play the rest of the court.

max 02-05-2013 08:44 AM

Cindy, I agree. I don't play much mixed, but used to see this kind of stuff.

Mixed tennis, once its past the social level, is pretty chaotic.

sureshs 02-05-2013 08:54 AM

4.5 is not the issue, the 6'6" Del Potro height is.

spot 02-05-2013 08:58 AM

Well... part of it is that 4.5 can be a WIDE range of ability. Since so few people actually play 5.0 its tough to get bumped up past 4.5 and people will desperately try and make sure they aren't bumped up because in many areas that would basically eliminate them from playing league tennis.

SuperJimmy 02-05-2013 09:31 AM

The key to beating a 4.5 guy/3.5 lady pair is to abandon traditional doubles strategy...which many people have trouble doing. Hit to the 3.5 lady at all costs. Doesn't matter if the 4.5 guy is at the baseline and the lady is at the net, still hit to her. A 3.5 isn't going to have the ability to consistently hit a put-away volley/overhead. Their best bet at being effective at net is to hug the net. The problem is, if you hit to the 4.5 guy at the baseline, most likely he has the power/angle/touch to force a weak return...which compliments his partner by allowing her to hug the net.

You can lob her constantly to keep her from hugging the net. With a 3.5 at the net (just hand waving here), a bad lob would result in something like 40% put away, 50% easy returnable shot, 10% unforced error. A mediocre lob (overhead around the service line) would probably be 5% putaway, 30% easy returnable shot, 50% attackable shot, 15% unforced error. Good lobs cause the 4.5 to retrieve simply sapping energy from them. Outside of lobs, you have to evaluate the strength of the 3.5 lady with volleys. Some handle pace well, but handle no pace poorly, some the other way around, but rarely do they handle both well. You can just throw in normal groundstrokes at them as well.

This past season I was 4-1 at 9.0 and 3-2 at the #1 spot at 8.0. Those two losses were due to lob masters and really good keep-away artists. Of course you can ask the partner to stand in the alley and take the whole court, but...that wouldn't be fun...and all players on the court deserve to hit the ball and work to be better.

Cindysphinx 02-05-2013 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7193052)
4.5 is not the issue, the 6'6" Del Potro height is.

Yeah, that is not height you see very often at the low end of league play. Or much of anywhere outside of the friggin' NBA.

Here's the sad thing. When we were playing for fun and it was his turn to serve, he said, "OK, Cindy. How would you like me to serve to you?"

I said, "I want all the spin you've got. Make me look like a clown!"

So. I stink at returning spin serves, but the one thing I know is you have to catch it on the rise. Since it was social, I figured he wouldn't try to put my eye out with a body serve, and besides, we had a deal he would hit spin serves. When he tossed, I sprinted toward the service line and flung myself in the general direction of the ball.

As luck would have it, I returned each of his serves in this clumsy, sad, pathetic fashion. When we had game point on him, he said something like, "OK, time to get serious." He was kidding, but he did add even more spin to his next serve. I sprinted forward again, stuck my butt out, closed my eyes, and swatted at it. It went over. He returned it back to me at about 15% of the pace he could generate if he wanted. I bunted it back to him. He kept lifting the ball up directly to my racket, and finally we won the point and "broke" him.

He should have charged me for his time. 'Cause we weren't "playing." He was "teaching."

Don't get me wrong. He was a delight. He just is way too good for 8.0 mixed.

Cindysphinx 02-05-2013 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travlerajm (Post 7193001)
I played 8.0 USTA in 2013, but I turned down 3 offers to join 4.5M teams and 2 offers to join 4.5M over 40 teams. Why?

The twisted logic works like this:
My work schedule with my med device startup keeps me busy, so I only end up on court about 2-3 times per month. If I joined a 4.5 team, my ego wouldn't be able to take losing matches to guys who I could beat if I played an extra time per week. So then I'd have to play an extra time per week. But then I'd have less time to work on my startup, which could put its success in jeopardy. If my startup fails, I'll be out on the street with no money for court fees. So I make the tough decision to forgo 4.5.

On the other hand, I can win almost every USTA 8.0 match without needing to practice much, since most of my opponents are 4.0/4.0 teams (until you get to sectionals at least).

I do pack a racquet with me whenever I travel (which is often), and I do bring my racquet to the gym with me to hit against the racquetball wall at least once a week - so that my strokes are ready for social tennis (or USTA 8.0) whenever I get the call!

OK. I get it. Bouncing balls off of my forehead in 8.0 mixed will help you get your start-up off the ground, hopefully turning you into a gazillionaire in a few years.

So where's my cut? :)

dunlop_fort_knox 02-05-2013 10:02 AM

he was probably a 5.0 who gamed the USTA system to play down. people. you don't have to have the government "rule" how you play tennis. :)

Govnor 02-05-2013 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 7193228)
OK. I get it. Bouncing balls off of my forehead in 8.0 mixed will help you get your start-up off the ground, hopefully turning you into a gazillionaire in a few years.

So where's my cut? :)

Brilliant.

OrangePower 02-05-2013 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 7192787)
Mixed needs to be changed so you 4.5 guys are not permitted to play 8.0 mixed.

Here's my question. If USTA made a rule change, would 4.5 guys lose out on too many playing opportunities? Does 9.0 mixed even exist most places?

The rule should be that the woman needs to be at the same or higher level than the guy. That would keep the tennis decent.

As a 4.5 guy, I don't play 8.0 mixed because it is just not good tennis. So losing that opportunity is fine with me.

There is some 9.0 mixed where I am. The tennis is good. But not many teams I'm guessing because 4.5 and higher women are fairly rare. So I don't play that either since it's not convenient for me to join a team at one of the few facilities that have 9.0.

I enjoy mixed in a social setting but really don't see the need to be playing it competitively. No disrespect to the ladies but at the 4.5 level men's tennis is just much better and more suited to be played competitively.

OrangePower 02-05-2013 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travlerajm (Post 7193001)
If I joined a 4.5 team, my ego wouldn't be able to take losing matches to guys who I could beat if I played an extra time per week. So then I'd have to play an extra time per week. But then I'd have less time to work on my startup, which could put its success in jeopardy. If my startup fails, I'll be out on the street with no money for court fees. So I make the tough decision to forgo 4.5.

On the other hand, I can win almost every USTA 8.0 match without needing to practice much, since most of my opponents are 4.0/4.0 teams (until you get to sectionals at least).

Gee, seems like you could get the identical outcome and the same kicks by just self-rating as a 4.0 using your middle name or something, and then beating up on 4.0s while playing crappy tennis. Sounds like a blast.

damazing 02-05-2013 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 7192787)
Of 8.0 mixed, that is.

Now, you 4.5 guys know I love ya, right? You're awesome. You can hit your spots, you can hit wicked slice, you can bewilder the ladies with your spins and pace, you can utterly destroy the serves of pretty much any 4.0 woman.

But OrangePower is totally right. Mixed needs to be changed so you 4.5 guys are not permitted to play 8.0 mixed.

Take last night.

Our 8.0 mixed team had a match. I played Court One with my 4.0 partner, against two 4.0s. What a great match it was! Lots of exciting points and great shots. The guys went at each other, but the ladies got in on the act. The score was 7-5, 6-4.

Ah, but it was a different story on Courts 2 and 3. We fielded to 4.0/4.0 pairs, but our opponents fielded two 4.5/3.5 pairs. Scores were 6-0, 6-0 and 6-3, 6-3.

After my match, we played for fun a bit. My 4.0 partner and I played against the 4.0 guy and the 4.5 guy who handed out the double bagel to my teammates.

It was ridiculous. Even with the 4.5 guy holding back, we stood no chance against him. He was 6'6" tall -- it was like playing Del Potro.

Come on. USTA league tennis is supposed to be competitive, and allowing 4.5 guys in 8.0 mixed defeats that goal. I know 4.0 women who simply will not play mixed anymore for fear of running up against a 4.5 guy. It isn't any fun to get aced all night.

Here's my question. If USTA made a rule change, would 4.5 guys lose out on too many playing opportunities? Does 9.0 mixed even exist most places? Do the same problems exist when 3.5 guys play 6.0 mixed and when 4.0 guys play 7.0 mixed?

It sounded like you had a nice match - you did well to win, because your male opponent just got bumped down from 4.5 last year and his 4.0 partner is a capable player.

The 4.5/3.5 combo that your team played had a very good 4.5 and the 3.5 woman already has wins at 4.0 so its not surprising that they double bageled your team mates.

omega4 02-05-2013 11:06 AM

So complicated....


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