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-   -   Model yourself after the best of all times (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=453735)

10isfreak 02-05-2013 07:24 AM

Model yourself after the best of all times
 
We can argue back and forth about who has been the best player, all era's confounded, even if the margin for counting Federer out is an ever receding entity. But, for a matter of comparison, let's not waste our chance of also using Nadal!

A blogger "whose name shall not be written" has published a very extensive and detailed comparison of both of their forehands. I will not post any link to the web page since TT sometimes view it as a form of advertisment or poromotion, but you may find him through google using "tennis" and "speed" as key words.

Here it begins:
The ready position


Breaking the triangle


Completed backswing


First forward move

10isfreak 02-05-2013 07:25 AM

20 frames (95.2 milliseconds) before impact


10 frames (47.6 milliseconds prior impact)


At impact


5 frames (23,8 milliseconds) after impact

10isfreak 02-05-2013 07:28 AM

Follow-through


End of stroke

LuckyR 02-05-2013 10:28 AM

Hate to break it to you, but strokes hit during warmups aren't really the strokes anyone should model...

rk_sports 02-05-2013 10:46 AM

Interesting how both their shots look to have identical tech specs.. but the resulting ball is so different!

sureshs 02-05-2013 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rk_sports (Post 7193403)
Interesting how both their shots look to have identical tech specs.. but the resulting ball is so different!

I think Nadal is swinging much faster around impact

Relinquis 02-05-2013 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyR (Post 7193337)
Hate to break it to you, but strokes hit during warmups aren't really the strokes anyone should model...

why not? i think the pros do these practice strokes for a reason. it allows one to know the ideal racquet path, muscle movement and such so that it can be called on during match play to the extent the situation allows.

TennisCJC 02-05-2013 11:43 AM

Thanks for posting this. I enjoyed this. It is amazing how similar such disimilar players are. I have seen split screen side by side video analysis of Fed and Nadal and it also showed the common attributes of each shot.

I disagree with the comment above that modeling after these "warm-up strokes" is not a good idea. This analysis includes all the attributes of the modern forehand in my view and I hope (dream) my FH is as close to these as possible.

I think once you have these basics down it becomes possible to adjust to the dynamic situations of real match play. If you don't have these basics down, there is no way in hell that you can adjust to the dynamics of match play. Walk before you run baby. So, this is way cool in my view.

TennisCJC 02-05-2013 11:50 AM

One difference I find interesting is in the 2nd frame in post 1 where they are "prepping" (Yandell) or "getting in stalk position" (Wegner); is how Federer leads back more with the elbow. The elbow leading back keeps Federer stroke a wee bit more compact. I prefer this method rather than tucking the elbow into the side like Nadal which allows the racket arm to get a little more behind the body.

WildVolley 02-05-2013 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyR (Post 7193337)
Hate to break it to you, but strokes hit during warmups aren't really the strokes anyone should model...

There's also a lot of slow motion video of these two guys hitting balls during matches. Your criticism will hold if those strokes are a lot different mechanically. I tend to think from what I've seen that they're not.

10isfreak 02-05-2013 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyR (Post 7193337)
Hate to break it to you, but strokes hit during warmups aren't really the strokes anyone should model...

Hate to break it to you, but these aren‘t warm up strokes... they are practice strokes and since players are less challenged during hitting sessions, these are pecisely the ideal model because they‘re strokes in their purest form. During matches, pressure and adaptation might force unusual, weird adjustments.

10isfreak 02-05-2013 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rk_sports (Post 7193403)
Interesting how both their shots look to have identical tech specs.. but the resulting ball is so different!

The blogger explains that Nadal usually steeper swing path generates higher trajectories while increasing the effect of his extreme racket tilt at impact. That‘s why Federer hits more flat and Nadal gets a more loopy effect. It also exposes an important fact: your swing mostly determine how high the ball flies, how steep its rising slope is when it leaves your racket.

BevelDevil 02-05-2013 01:05 PM

These are obviously great strokes.

The real questions are along the lines of:

- Should this be taught to beginners?
- Should this be learned from scratch, or should this stroke be developed over the years?
- How hard is this to learn and maintain, even for a dedicated, experienced player?
- Is it worth the transition?
- Does it require exceptional timing or footwork?
- What are the downsides?

LuckyR 02-05-2013 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10isfreak (Post 7193781)
Hate to break it to you, but these aren‘t warm up strokes... they are practice strokes and since players are less challenged during hitting sessions, these are pecisely the ideal model because they‘re strokes in their purest form. During matches, pressure and adaptation might force unusual, weird adjustments.

Let me put it to you differently. If your body looks identical to either of the last frames at that point in the stroke in matchplay, you are not hitting the stroke as well as you could (even if the previous frames are also identical).

As to the availability of slo mo matchplay strokes of the Pros (these two in particular)... that is exactly my point. Congrats.

isilra 02-05-2013 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7193423)
I think Nadal is swinging much faster around impact

I don't think the result is so different. Fed has the second most average rpm on the tour after nadal. He plays more offensive and flat compared to nadal, that's the only difference between their shot. It's a matter of eastern grip vs western grip.

dominikk1985 02-05-2013 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rk_sports (Post 7193403)
Interesting how both their shots look to have identical tech specs.. but the resulting ball is so different!

this is not nadals usual swing.

in practice he mostly uses a ww finish (and hits the ball quite flat) but in games he uses that lasso FH almost always.

10isfreak 02-05-2013 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 7194022)
this is not nadals usual swing.

in practice he mostly uses a ww finish (and hits the ball quite flat) but in games he uses that lasso FH almost always.

His usual swing on hard courts does involve a ww follow-through. As for the swing itself there is not a lot of difference between the reverse forehand and a standard ww forehand. The point being that both players show extensively similar mechanics, contrary to common beliefs.

As for the sake of comparison, we‘d have to compare Federer and Nadal both doing a reverse forehand to get a real idea... whether Nadal uses it more often or not is of no relevance here because we compare swings, not tactics.

10isfreak 02-05-2013 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isilra (Post 7193918)
I don't think the result is so different. Fed has the second most average rpm on the tour after nadal. He plays more offensive and flat compared to nadal, that's the only difference between their shot. It's a matter of eastern grip vs western grip.

One of the thing the researcher noted is the difference between reality and beliefs regarding grips: a great array of different grips enable players to hit very comparable shots. It‘s actually a matter of swing path and racket tilt at impact... in essence, Federer evolved into hitting flatter than Nadal for strategic purposes (same for Nadal, but with loopier strokes). It‘s their intention and habits, not their grips, which makes the biggest difference.

There are players using semi-western grips that can‘t top Federer‘s spin production... the grip defines very little beyond the forearm to racket relationship. Both Nadal and Federer can hit the same ball; they‘re just grooved into doing some shots better than others.

10isfreak 02-05-2013 04:21 PM

As a small disclaimer, I do not think that grips have no influence; I think that this influence is very much exaggerated in tennis talks over the net or even by coaches from the USTPA.

Cheetah 02-05-2013 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10isfreak (Post 7194286)
I think that this influence is very much exaggerated in tennis talks over the net or even by coaches from the USTPA.

why do 99% of players with western grips hit more spin than players with an eastern and why do players with eastern grips hit flatter that players with a western if the influence is very much exaggerated?


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