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-   -   Is Henin an underachiever? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=453737)

dominikk1985 02-05-2013 07:43 AM

Is Henin an underachiever?
 
She obviously had a great career and absolutely destroyed the field in 07 but in my opinion henin in her prime is the best Player ever. she could have won 15+ slams like serena, graf or Martina.

she won "only" 3 slams off clay and lost a lot of finals.

of course her early retirement didn't help but in her first retirements Age graf had already won 20+ and I think henin was a better Player than graf was.

was she an underachiever, especially on hardcourt?

Jack Romeo 02-05-2013 08:18 AM

i guess she was an underachiever on grass, considering she showed such promise there early on. at 19, she reached the wimbledon final in 2001, losing in 3 sets to venus, who was obviously in her prime. she had some bad early losses, like in 2005 to daniilidou. i really thought she was going to win in 2006 but i guess mauresmo was too motivated and too much in henin's head at that time. then, of course, she was shocked in 2007 by bartoli in the semis, although i'm not totally convinced she would have beaten venus in the final that year. she did beat serena in the quarters that year and she did beat both sisters back-to-back at the us open later that year, but i think venus would have still been the champion even if she played henin instead of bartoli. maybe justine wasn't physically sturdy enough to handle the transition from dominating on clay to being successful right away on the grass. i think if she didn't retire, she could have added a few more slams, especially at the french open, but 15 is pushing it. with regards to her hard court results, i feel she did just about right because even in her prime, she was vulnerable there to a power player like sharapova or serena.

Carsomyr 02-05-2013 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 7192869)
She obviously had a great career and absolutely destroyed the field in 07 but in my opinion henin in her prime is the best Player ever. she could have won 15+ slams like serena, graf or Martina.

she won "only" 3 slams off clay and lost a lot of finals.

of course her early retirement didn't help but in her first retirements Age graf had already won 20+ and I think henin was a better Player than graf was.
was she an underachiever, especially on hardcourt?

No. Just no.

bluetrain4 02-05-2013 08:23 AM

I think she could have won a few more, but overall, I don't think she was an underachiever.

And, I definitely don't think she was better than Graf. True, her game was sublime to watch, beautiful, great variety. But, I really think people get hung up on aesthetics and because they respect beauty and variety so much want to tout a player with more beautiful game as "better" than someone with a less beautiful game.

North 02-05-2013 08:28 AM

I think she had the all-court game to have done better on hard courts and grass (especially the slowed-down variety). Not sure why she didn't do better on those surfaces, unless she put so much into winning FO/clay that it took away from success on hard & grass courts.

NadalAgassi 02-05-2013 08:33 AM

She was both an over and underachiever. When she first emerged nobody had her winning 7 slams, being one of the 3 dominant players of the last 15 years along with the 2 Williams, and being one of the 3 top clay courters of all time along with Graf and Evert. She far exceeded all expectations. She was also an underachiever quitting like a coward at 25 due to a mini slump, and just presuming with her playing style she could come back on cue and dominate again (far from the case as we saw), and since she had that serious viral infection for 2 years in the middle of her prime.

Definitely should have won atleast 1 Wimbledon, and would have smashed Evert's all time RG record had she kept playing without a retirement until atleast 30. However also was lucky to play in a weak clay era, and peak and win all those big hard court titles when Serena was mostly AWOL.

As for compared to Graf some aspects of her game are better than Graf. Much better backhand, better at the net, possibly better return of serve. However Graf and her huge weapons in her serve, forehand, and athleticsm, still probably would be more effective than Henin's all around game.

robow7 02-05-2013 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 7192869)
and I think henin was a better Player than graf was.

I don't agree but would like to hear why you think that since I see it as not even close.

Xavier G 02-05-2013 12:20 PM

I suppose Henin could have won another two or three Majors, but I don't think I would call her an 'underachiever'. She had a very good career with the 7 GS wins, Olympic gold in 2004 and over 40 WTA titles. Justine had a good chance to win Wimbledon in 06 especially, but Mauresmo had her say that year. Wimbledon is the only big crown missing from Henin's collection, and that was one of her best chances to win, along with 2007. Surprising defeat to Bartoli that year. Henin was a match for the Williams sisters at her best in 2007, probably her best ever year.
One match I would have liked Justine to win was the AO final of 2010 after her comeback, but Serena just hung too tough. That would have been a fitting swansong to Justine's career, but all in all, she had a good run and not an underachiever in my eyes.

dominikk1985 02-05-2013 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robow7 (Post 7193086)
I don't agree but would like to hear why you think that since I see it as not even close.

well she could do more with the ball. she hit with spin, power, angles and Finesse.

Graf was better with the FH and serve but she only had a slice on her BH while henin could do everything with her BH and her FH and serve were not too shabby either (at least her first which was surprisingly powerfull-her second was a Little suspect at times but this is true for many women).

I also think henin was a better net Player and all court Player.

of course being complete alone means nothing- Xavier malisse is certainly a more "complete Player" than Robin söderling but henin could use her stuff very well on court. she was a beast when she was on.

jaggy 02-05-2013 12:35 PM

I thought she did as well as could be expected really

SoCal10s 02-05-2013 10:26 PM

with the recent scandals with PED ,sometimes I think she retired early to get away from this .. I'm not saying she did or did not but right now,everyone is a suspect ..

BevelDevil 02-06-2013 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robow7 (Post 7193086)
I don't agree but would like to hear why you think that since I see it as not even close.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 7193706)
well she could do more with the ball. she hit with spin, power, angles and Finesse.

Graf was better with the FH and serve but she only had a slice on her BH while henin could do everything with her BH and her FH and serve were not too shabby either (at least her first which was surprisingly powerfull-her second was a Little suspect at times but this is true for many women).

How would Henin match up with Seles?

Jack Romeo 02-06-2013 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BevelDevil (Post 7194932)
How would Henin match up with Seles?

obviously, you're asking about prime seles here, right? well, i think it would depend a bit on how henin is serving. there were matches where she got outhit by the likes of sharapova and pierce because she didn't serve well. seles is just as aggressive with the return as those players so she can take control in that kind of situation. but overall, henin would match up well against seles. she is a great athlete, is mentally tough, has her own power, can counter against power, and can play from any position on the court. remember that past-prime navratilova had a respectable record against pre-prime to prime seles. so i would even give henin the edge.

robow7 02-06-2013 07:19 AM

Let's see,
Graf has 22 grand slams vs. Henin's 7
Graf has 107 tourney wins vs Henin's 43
Graf had a career winning percentage of 89% vs 82%
Graf was number 1 for 377 weeks vs. 117 for Henin

You still haven't sold me yet

dominikk1985 02-06-2013 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robow7 (Post 7195426)
Let's see,
Graf has 22 grand slams vs. Henin's 7
Graf has 107 tourney wins vs Henin's 43
Graf had a career winning percentage of 89% vs 82%
Graf was number 1 for 377 weeks vs. 117 for Henin

You still haven't sold me yet

that's why I said she is an underachiever:D.

BevelDevil 02-07-2013 01:00 AM

Seems like Henin had a tougher field, no?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Romeo (Post 7195125)
obviously, you're asking about prime seles here, right? well, i think it would depend a bit on how henin is serving. there were matches where she got outhit by the likes of sharapova and pierce because she didn't serve well. seles is just as aggressive with the return as those players so she can take control in that kind of situation. but overall, henin would match up well against seles. she is a great athlete, is mentally tough, has her own power, can counter against power, and can play from any position on the court. remember that past-prime navratilova had a respectable record against pre-prime to prime seles. so i would even give henin the edge.

If Henin > Seles, and IF Seles>=Graf (arguable)... would we apply transitivity here?

comeback 02-08-2013 11:18 AM

My opinion is Henin was an overachiever...She was a fairly slight woman, not very muscular..But she was a female version of Federer. She possessed every shot in the book. Went for big shots like a real champion..Too bad her body (arm) just gave out..The victim of a sport which has become more about physical strength and endurance than tennis talent,,If you listen to Li Na her now coach Rodriquez (Henin's former coach) is an animal for killer workouts..Good if you have the body for it but devastating if you don't..It must have taken a tremendous daily overachieving effort for her to get to that level

dominikk1985 02-08-2013 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by comeback (Post 7200204)
My opinion is Henin was an overachiever...She was a fairly slight woman, not very muscular..But she was a female version of Federer. She possessed every shot in the book. Went for big shots like a real champion..Too bad her body (arm) just gave out..The victim of a sport which has become more about physical strength and endurance than tennis talent,,If you listen to Li Na her now coach Rodriquez (Henin's former coach) is an animal for killer workouts..Good if you have the body for it but devastating if you don't..

henin got so good because of that "killer training". she always had the strokes but later in her career she became really fit and strong. she was not tall or muscular but she was a very strong and fit woman.

just technique doesn't make you hit as hard as she did. she was one of the most powerfull players of her generation and could hit with girls like sharapova or serena.

tennisplayer1993 03-19-2013 12:29 PM

Henin had a sick backhand. If anyone underachieved during that era of female tennis it was Amelia Mauresmo

jerriy 03-20-2013 06:15 AM

She retired while ranked world number one during the clay season just before the French Open which she was defending for multiple years in a row.

That fact alone, all by itself, makes her the biggest underachiever in the history of tennis.


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