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-   -   No "Pet The Dog" on 2HBH? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=453860)

TheLambsheadrep 02-06-2013 05:39 AM

No "Pet The Dog" on 2HBH?
 
Just looking at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QjS9Abwk2E and notice that the Big 4 and more don't apply PTD to their BH like they do on their FH. It's just odd to me since you hear so much about the 2HBH being a opposite handed FH with a guide. I never really bought into that, but I also have a weird BH myself (western 2HBH http://tennis.about.com/od/forehandb...pclosewt_3.htm). Right now I'm holding the racquet in a right hander's continental(R)/eastern(L) and also a continental(R)/semiwestern(L) grip and am able to PTD on both (easier on the continental(R)/semiwestern(L)), so I'm guessing that the right hand (for righties) messes this up mechanically in a full playing stroke somehow...?

BevelDevil 02-06-2013 10:29 AM

Yeah, the "left-handed forehand" analogy is misleading in a bunch of ways.

I think there's no ptd because there's insufficient range of motion to lead back with the elbow.

julian 02-06-2013 10:35 AM

You have to define PTD
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep (Post 7195223)
Just looking at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QjS9Abwk2E and notice that the Big 4 and more don't apply PTD to their BH like they do on their FH. It's just odd to me since you hear so much about the 2HBH being a opposite handed FH with a guide. I never really bought into that, but I also have a weird BH myself (western 2HBH http://tennis.about.com/od/forehandb...pclosewt_3.htm). Right now I'm holding the racquet in a right hander's continental(R)/eastern(L) and also a continental(R)/semiwestern(L) grip and am able to PTD on both (easier on the continental(R)/semiwestern(L)), so I'm guessing that the right hand (for righties) messes this up mechanically in a full playing stroke somehow...?

You have to define PTD
Otherwise any conversation is useless.
I have seen that before

julian 02-06-2013 10:42 AM

Please elaborate
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BevelDevil (Post 7195840)
Yeah, the "left-handed forehand" analogy is misleading in a bunch of ways.

I think there's no ptd because there's insufficient range of motion to lead back with the elbow.

Please elaborate

BevelDevil 02-06-2013 11:47 AM

ptd= "pat the dog", which means you turn and reach your palm downward. This is common in a forehand when players stick their elbow back, which turns the palm down on the backswing.

The OP wanted to know why this doesn't happen on the 2hbh. I speculated that it's because having the right hand on the racket prevents the player from pulling his left arm back far enough to do a true "pat the dog." (Arguably, the ptd does take place, but just later, in the forward swing).


As for the "left-handed forehand" analogy, it breaks down when you consider that on the closed-stance 2hbh the weight transfer takes place very early, usually during or before the racket drop. Whereas, on the modern forehand the weight shift usually comes later, if at all (depends a lot on the stance used).

TheLambsheadrep 02-06-2013 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julian (Post 7195855)
You have to define PTD
Otherwise any conversation is useless.
I have seen that before

Definition - http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=3241023 post 77

Seen what before, PTD on the 2HBH? I thought you didn't know what it was...and where have you seen it?

TheLambsheadrep 02-06-2013 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BevelDevil (Post 7195983)
Arguably, the ptd does take place, but just later, in the forward swing.

Is there a video (or a player specifically) where you can see it happening at all? Even though my search has not been extensive I have seen nothing but perpendicular racquet faces to the court through each entire swing, with slight racquet closing only at contact

sureshs 02-06-2013 12:14 PM

What is the difference between pet the dog and pat the dog?

WildVolley 02-06-2013 12:58 PM

The distinctive "pat-the-dog" motion which closes the racket face to the court on the modern forehand seems to be missing with most pro 2hbhs.

The closest I've seen to doing it are probably Gulbis and Nadal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3DzVEj-fQ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cdQLPbxcpk

A lot of the other players have a racket that is slightly open at the start of the forward swing.

BevelDevil 02-06-2013 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep (Post 7196018)
Is there a video (or a player specifically) where you can see it happening at all? Even though my search has not been extensive I have seen nothing but perpendicular racquet faces to the court through each entire swing, with slight racquet closing only at contact

I see some closing of the racket face at the start of the forward swing, but completely closed, no.

Most players get the closed face on the fh from sticking their elbows back. This just can't be done comfortably with the other hand on the racket.

I also question its usefulness, seeing how the bottom hand will be assisting in pulling the racket forward.

If you don't see pros doing it, there's probably a reason for it.

dominikk1985 02-06-2013 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BevelDevil (Post 7195983)
ptd= "pat the dog", which means you turn and reach your palm downward. This is common in a forehand when players stick their elbow back, which turns the palm down on the backswing.

The OP wanted to know why this doesn't happen on the 2hbh. I speculated that it's because having the right hand on the racket prevents the player from pulling his left arm back far enough to do a true "pat the dog." (Arguably, the ptd does take place, but just later, in the forward swing).


As for the "left-handed forehand" analogy, it breaks down when you consider that on the closed-stance 2hbh the weight transfer takes place very early, usually during or before the racket drop. Whereas, on the modern forehand the weight shift usually comes later, if at all (depends a lot on the stance used).

pat the dog has nothing to do with the backswing, it is the Motion at contact (pronation). there are some Players who Close the racket face at the backswing and they still are not patting the dog. the left wrist is inhiting the range of the right wrist.

Muppet 02-06-2013 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep (Post 7196018)
Is there a video (or a player specifically) where you can see it happening at all? Even though my search has not been extensive I have seen nothing but perpendicular racquet faces to the court through each entire swing, with slight racquet closing only at contact

Michael Chang would close the face of his racquet during the backswing. His wrists would be bent back and a little down before his forward stroke.

WildVolley 02-06-2013 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 7196272)
pat the dog has nothing to do with the backswing, it is the Motion at contact (pronation). there are some Players who Close the racket face at the backswing and they still are not patting the dog. the left wrist is inhiting the range of the right wrist.

Actually, in most instruction, "pat-the-dog" is not a description of a movement at contact, but instead a description of turning the racket face toward the ground during the transition from the backswing to the forward swing. Instructors will say things like, at the end of your backswing "pat-the-dog" and demonstrate this motion - pressing the racket face down toward the court as if you were giving a pat on the back of a large dog.

SpeedMaster in his blog associates it with "elbow pronation" at the end of the backswing.

BevelDevil 02-06-2013 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildVolley (Post 7196225)
The distinctive "pat-the-dog" motion which closes the racket face to the court on the modern forehand seems to be missing with most pro 2hbhs.

The closest I've seen to doing it are probably Gulbis and Nadal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3DzVEj-fQ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cdQLPbxcpk

A lot of the other players have a racket that is slightly open at the start of the forward swing.

Be careful about drawing conclusions from Nadal's bh. Unlike the vast majority of players, his front arm stays mostly straight from the backswing through the forward swing, and it seems like he's really using that arm to pull the racket through.

dominikk1985 02-06-2013 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildVolley (Post 7196291)
Actually, in most instruction, "pat-the-dog" is not a description of a movement at contact, but instead a description of turning the racket face toward the ground during the transition from the backswing to the forward swing. Instructors will say things like, at the end of your backswing "pat-the-dog" and demonstrate this motion - pressing the racket face down toward the court as if you were giving a pat on the back of a large dog.

SpeedMaster in his blog associates it with "elbow pronation" at the end of the backswing.

Isn't pat the dog the closing at contact?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmmKlOFKqvE't=0m41s

there are very few quys out there who teach closing the racket in the backswing. most Players do it but I think None of them was taught to do this. I always thought pat the bog is brushing the ball.

LeeD 02-06-2013 01:34 PM

Simple answer.
2hbh is hit with eastern forehand of the non dominant hand...AND.... the dominant hand is still attached at the beginning of the forward loop swing.

TheCheese 02-06-2013 01:38 PM

I think the reason Nadal/Gulbis have the pat the dog on the backhand is because they have a more extreme grip on their bottom hand, not because they're pronating their left arm so much more than other players.

WildVolley 02-06-2013 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 7196316)
Isn't pat the dog the closing at contact?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmmKlOFKqvE't=0m41s

there are very few quys out there who teach closing the racket in the backswing. most Players do it but I think None of them was taught to do this. I always thought pat the bog is brushing the ball.

No, I don't know what that's called. That's the highly disputed question of whether or not players are consciously hitting bellow the horizontal center of the racket.

"Pat-the-dog" is the move that Federer makes at about 35 seconds into the video you've linked to.

TheCheese 02-06-2013 02:02 PM

Pat the dog is where the racket head lags behind the arm and the racket face points towards the ground.


WildVolley 02-06-2013 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BevelDevil (Post 7196303)
Be careful about drawing conclusions from Nadal's bh. Unlike the vast majority of players, his front arm stays mostly straight from the backswing through the forward swing, and it seems like he's really using that arm to pull the racket through.

I'm not sure I'm drawing a conclusion other than to say they seem to have almost a "pat-the-dog" type movement in that they close the racket face at the start of the swing. One of the reasons to do this is that it helps from having the racket face open too early into contact and send the ball long. I'm not at all certain if it creates a stretch reflex when hitting the bh as it might do in the fh. However, I've been influenced by both players when working on my own 2hbh.


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