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-   -   Private Coaches missed flaw in my service motion (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=454071)

Raul_SJ 02-08-2013 12:00 AM

Private Coaches missed flaw in my service motion
 
I had taken private lessons with two coaches, both USPTA Level 1 Certified and former Div I players.

They both helped me improve my serve but yet they did not catch a major flaw in my service motion.

After a year I took lessons with a third coach who caught the flaw and he says it will take time, up to a year, to fully correct it.

I am disappointed that the other well qualified, and well paid, coaches did not catch this problem. ..And I had specifically asked them if there was any flaw in my service form because I did not want to develop any improper habits at the outset.

Moz 02-08-2013 12:02 AM

What was the flaw they missed?

Raul_SJ 02-08-2013 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moz (Post 7199246)
What was the flaw they missed?

Shifting grip during the service motion -- Moving from a strong continental to a weak continental. I think the grip shift problem was also causing me to loose smoothness and racquet head speed.

When I do it correctly now, I notice much more power and spin on the serve.

The latest coach seems to see everything better than the previous coaches, even though all had the same background and USPTA Level 1 certifications.

Coach Dave Smith also mentions cases where experienced coaches miss this type of problem:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/archi.../t-398765.html

I had a top ranked junior move to Florida to train...only to come back to me a year later and he was doing exactly what the OP was describing..which none of the pros in FL caught. And this was a top 400 ranked player! (He came back and said while his serve speed of 120 was fine, it was his second serve that was just giving him fits and many double faults.)

The first time I saw him serve, I said, "A.J...you are shifting your grip in mid swing, effectively moving towards an eastern forehand grip! You can't get the kind of spin to have a huge second serve."

Moz 02-08-2013 03:45 AM

I suspected as much - the exact same thing has happened to me!

fuzz nation 02-08-2013 06:32 AM

Gotta ask... what did those coaches actually do for your game? Hard for me to believe that all they did was miss that grip change, right?

Did either of them try to encourage a different swing path to contact with your serve? If they did, then they were doing something right. I point this out because I've never been confronted with a mid-swing grip changer such as yourself in my teaching experience... yet!

By altering your grip in the middle of swinging at the ball, you were unconsciously sabotaging your own serve with something that would be virtually impossible to spot without knowing the "circumstantial evidence" that would diagnose it. Dave Smith has huge teaching experience and probably numbers among the relative few who would be able to isolate that serving gremlin in short order - we're truly fortunate to have him pitching in around here on a semi-regular basis.

I sympathize with your frustrations, but I think it's reasonable to offer that the "hitch" in your serve was among the trickiest things to figure out. Fortunately for the rest of us, Dave's "been-there-done-that".

SystemicAnomaly 02-08-2013 06:44 AM

Different coaches see different things. I never bothered to get my certification but I will often pick up flaws in stroke mechanics that some highly-certified coaches do not pick up on. OTOH, some of them will pick up on things that I do not notice. Oft times different coaches will have different approaches to correcting a given flaw.

If a flaw is missed by one coach, then it is often best to seek out another pair of eyes. Not sure that any coach will be able to pick up on all flaws but, hopefully, by correcting one aspect of a problem, the other flaws might also be corrected. It is a shame, however, that it took a 3rd coach to spot your grip issue. I have seen it in a few of my own students. In one case, it took me a while to spot the grip change.

WildVolley 02-08-2013 06:59 AM

This gives more evidence for using high speed video. It is almost impossible to see small changes at full speed. But when you can repeatedly watch a small clip of video at hundreds of frames a second, things become clearer.

boramiNYC 02-08-2013 07:14 AM

I believe in building any stroke esp serve starting at the contact point and gradually around it to full swing. if you started out hitting serve using just the forearm and hand you can't shift around. the better the coach understand the biomechanics the better he can do this sort of thing.

Bedrock 02-08-2013 07:27 AM

It means only one thing: Such flaw is included in the package called "USPTA Level 1 Certified".
Good news that you do not have to spend a year to fix this minor problem. Since you know what to do it may take a couple of month.

Bad news since you developed wrong grip it is likely that it is not the only issue you need to review.

julian 02-08-2013 07:34 AM

Did you see videos in the PTD thread?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WildVolley (Post 7199607)
This gives more evidence for using high speed video. It is almost impossible to see small changes at full speed. But when you can repeatedly watch a small clip of video at hundreds of frames a second, things become clearer.

Did you see videos in the PTD thread?

Chas Tennis 02-08-2013 07:42 AM

What are strong continental and weak continental grips?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul_SJ (Post 7199368)
Shifting grip during the service motion -- Moving from a strong continental to a weak continental. I think the grip shift problem was also causing me to loose smoothness and racquet head speed............................................. .......
.................................................. ....................

Do you have a link describing what strong continental and weak continental grips are?

Two hand parts, such as index knuckle and heel pad, etc. must be specified to define a grip as in this clear FYB descriptions. For continental grip see 3:10 of the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr2f8...786851&index=1

I'm not sure what FYB has to say about any possible grips where the index knuckle and heel pad would be placed on different bevels of the racket.

Karlovic relaxing his grip during the service motion starting at 27 sec. Click YT start-pause as fast as possible to do stop action single frame.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=BV6t_KyzMxI#!

Many grip descriptions specify just one hand part. With only one hand part on a specific bevel the hand could still completely rotate 360 in relation to the racket handle.

Ash_Smith 02-08-2013 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul_SJ (Post 7199244)
I had taken private lessons with two coaches, both USPTA Level 1 Certified and former Div I players.

They both helped me improve my serve but yet they did not catch a major flaw in my service motion.

I am disappointed that the other well qualified, and well paid, coaches did not catch this problem. ..And I had specifically asked them if there was any flaw in my service form because I did not want to develop any improper habits at the outset.

It happens! Not all coaches are going to be looking for the same things, not all coaches will make the same corrections with different players - especially around the conti grip for serves (where a rec player may not want to go through the change process) and not all coaches will see everything that could be considered a flaw. Sometimes you cant see the wood for all the trees!

cheers

sureshs 02-08-2013 08:27 AM

Can this be detected with slow-motion high-speed video?

WildVolley 02-08-2013 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7199829)
Can this be detected with slow-motion high-speed video?

Sure. You can watch the grip change in slow motion. Did you notice that slow motion video of Karlovic serving?

sureshs 02-08-2013 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildVolley (Post 7199842)
Sure. You can watch the grip change in slow motion. Did you notice that slow motion video of Karlovic serving?

I watched it now, but unless someone pointed it out, I would not have known what to look for :-)

It does seem to require a skilled coach.

The only problem I caught on my own was in the serve of a 70 year old guy. I told him he starts with the conti but ends with the E FH at contact. He said several coaches had tried to correct this (including I believe during one of his Vic Braden camps), but could not. He insists it has something to do with his discus throwing as a young man.

julian 02-08-2013 09:19 AM

Dreamliner
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7199858)
I watched it now, but unless someone pointed it out, I would not have known what to look for :-)

It does seem to require a skilled coach.

The only problem I caught on my own was in the serve of a 70 year old guy. I told him he starts with the conti but ends with the E FH at contact. He said several coaches had tried to correct this (including I believe during one of his Vic Braden camps), but could not. He insists it has something to do with his discus throwing as a young man.

You have the same problem with DreamLiner.
I apologize to Ash Smith for bringing local American topics.

julian 02-08-2013 09:20 AM

Apologies for you
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith (Post 7199806)
It happens! Not all coaches are going to be looking for the same things, not all coaches will make the same corrections with different players - especially around the conti grip for serves (where a rec player may not want to go through the change process) and not all coaches will see everything that could be considered a flaw. Sometimes you cant see the wood for all the trees!

cheers

Greetings,
Apologies for you in post #16 above

sureshs 02-08-2013 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julian (Post 7199923)
You have the same problem with DreamLiner.
I apologize to Ash Smith for bringing local American topics.

Are you referring to the battery fire issue?

It was reported from a Japanese airline I think. It does affect Ash Smith, because he is going to be flying either an Airbus or a Boeing for long trips.

sureshs 02-08-2013 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julian (Post 7199926)
Greetings,
Apologies for you in post #16 below

Below in number, above on the page

Ash_Smith 02-08-2013 09:28 AM

^^^sorry - you've both lost me there! :D


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