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-   -   Top5 hardcourt players (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=454579)

dominikk1985 02-12-2013 03:43 PM

Top5 hardcourt players
 
What are your top5 just considering hardcourt?

I know plastic HC is not around that long so cement courts count too. I can only rank newer players since I don't really know when the USO and AO changed to HC.

how about:

1.fed (9 HC majors, lots of masters)
2.pete (7 HC majors)
3.djokovic (5 HC majors, lots of semis and masters)
4.agassi
5.?

hoodjem 02-12-2013 04:15 PM

Lendl at no. 5?

kiki 02-12-2013 11:34 PM

Connors, Mac,Lendl,Sampras,Federer and Agassi/Djokovic based merely on record

Flash O'Groove 02-13-2013 02:13 AM

The winning percentage on hard are the following (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...php?t=454579):

1. Fed
2. Lendl
3. Connors
4. Djokovic
5. Laver
6. Mac
7. Sampras
8. Agassi
9. Edberg
10. Murray

Things to note:

- The data for Laver are relatively small (but big enough for his winning percentage to be relevant nonetheless).
- Connors played for a really long time, which make his result very impressive. However Fed's data are even bigger, which is impressive too.
- The winning percentage don't weight the importance of the tournament.

The ranking by number of titles is the following:
1. Fed - 52
2. Agassi - 46
3. Connors - 44
4. Sampras - 36
5. Lendl - 31

Given those two ranking I would say:

1. Fed (he has more of everything)
2. Connors
3. Lendl
4. Sampras
5. Agassi
6. Djokovic

NadalAgassi 02-13-2013 12:00 PM

Hard courts has a relatively short history as a big time surface. So judging just the last 35 years since it has come to prominence and had atleast 1 major event held on it:

1. Federer- isnt the best ever on either fast or slow hard courts, but has the best balance of dominance between the two.

2. Sampras- best ever on faster hard courts and very good on slower ones too.

3. Djokovic- best ever on slower hard courts and very good on faster ones. Will overtake Federer as overall hard court GOAT by end of career most likely.

4. Agassi- best ever along with Djokovic on slower hard courts, and excellent on faster ones. Was held back by Sampras denying him so many fast hard court titles, and not playing the Australian Open so often early in his career.

5. Connors- actually maybe should be higher considering he would almost certainly have won 6 or 7 U.S Opens on fast hard courts and been the overall fast hard court GOAT today had the U.S Open not been on clay for 3 years.

6. McEnroe- at his best some of the highest level of play on hard courts, but not consistent enough.

7. Lendl- I feel like this is low but not sure who to place him above of the ones above.

------big gap-------

8. Nadal- super consistent on outdoor hard courts in prime years, and has won Australian Open, U.S Open, Olympics, and numerous Masters on them.

9. Murray- very consistently great results on hard courts in tough era.

10. Edberg- his 2 U.S Open performances are strong enough I put him above Becker and Courier.

Xavier G 02-13-2013 03:17 PM

Overall I think I'll go with Federer, Sampras, McEnroe, Connors and Lendl. There's a case for Lendl being higher. Mac in his prime loved hard courts.
Djokovic might surpass some of the others at his current rate.

timnz 02-13-2013 07:29 PM

Lendl top 3
 
Lendl is top 3. He is clearly above Agassi and Djokovic. He was in 11 HC slam finals even though the Australian Open didn't go to hard court until lendl was nearly 28!

90's Clay 02-13-2013 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi (Post 7211959)
Hard courts has a relatively short history as a big time surface. So judging just the last 35 years since it has come to prominence and had atleast 1 major event held on it:

1. Federer- isnt the best ever on either fast or slow hard courts, but has the best balance of dominance between the two.

2. Sampras- best ever on faster hard courts and very good on slower ones too.

3. Djokovic- best ever on slower hard courts and very good on faster ones. Will overtake Federer as overall hard court GOAT by end of career most likely.

4. Agassi- best ever along with Djokovic on slower hard courts, and excellent on faster ones. Was held back by Sampras denying him so many fast hard court titles, and not playing the Australian Open so often early in his career.

5. Connors- actually maybe should be higher considering he would almost certainly have won 6 or 7 U.S Opens on fast hard courts and been the overall fast hard court GOAT today had the U.S Open not been on clay for 3 years.

6. McEnroe- at his best some of the highest level of play on hard courts, but not consistent enough.

7. Lendl- I feel like this is low but not sure who to place him above of the ones above.

------big gap-------

8. Nadal- super consistent on outdoor hard courts in prime years, and has won Australian Open, U.S Open, Olympics, and numerous Masters on them.

9. Murray- very consistently great results on hard courts in tough era.

10. Edberg- his 2 U.S Open performances are strong enough I put him above Becker and Courier.



Great post.

Pretty much this

Flash O'Groove 02-14-2013 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi (Post 7211959)
Hard courts has a relatively short history as a big time surface. So judging just the last 35 years since it has come to prominence and had atleast 1 major event held on it:

1. Federer- isnt the best ever on either fast or slow hard courts, but has the best balance of dominance between the two.

2. Sampras- best ever on faster hard courts and very good on slower ones too.

3. Djokovic- best ever on slower hard courts and very good on faster ones. Will overtake Federer as overall hard court GOAT by end of career most likely.

4. Agassi- best ever along with Djokovic on slower hard courts, and excellent on faster ones. Was held back by Sampras denying him so many fast hard court titles, and not playing the Australian Open so often early in his career.

5. Connors- actually maybe should be higher considering he would almost certainly have won 6 or 7 U.S Opens on fast hard courts and been the overall fast hard court GOAT today had the U.S Open not been on clay for 3 years.

6. McEnroe- at his best some of the highest level of play on hard courts, but not consistent enough.

7. Lendl- I feel like this is low but not sure who to place him above of the ones above.

------big gap-------

8. Nadal- super consistent on outdoor hard courts in prime years, and has won Australian Open, U.S Open, Olympics, and numerous Masters on them.

9. Murray- very consistently great results on hard courts in tough era.

10. Edberg- his 2 U.S Open performances are strong enough I put him above Becker and Courier.

Great post, but I think you overrate Djokovic for now. In term of achievements he is far behind Lendl, Connors, Agassi and of course Sampras and Fed. He has some good chance to rise higher, but it's not done yet.

It is also too early to give him the edge on Agassi as the slow court goat, as Agassi missed a lot of AO.

NadalAgassi 02-14-2013 09:26 AM

How is he far behind. He already has the same # of slam titles on hard courts as Lendl and only 1 less than Agassi at only 25. He already has a ton of Masters titles, 2 WTFs (which is always played on an indoor hard court these days), and many additional slam finals and semis. He was far more dominant overall on hard courts than Agassi ever was apart from maybe 1995, and even then Agassi wasnt able to win the U.S Open due to Sampras, and his dominance at the Australian Open far exceeds what Lendl was able to show at either slam (going 3-5 in U.S Open finals is not dominance, sorry). Furthermore most now consider him the Australian Open GOAT, which alone elevates him to a high ranking.

Now regarding Lendl I think a large reason I ranked him where I did is I flat out think all those others were better hard court players and prime to prime would all beat him more often than not in a head to head. Keep in mind Lendl didnt win squat on hard courts until McEnroe fell way off form, and Connors was 32, despite being top 3 for years at that point. Connors at 30 and 31 beat Lendl at the U.S Open and generally was still dominating their rivalry. As for the what ifs about the Australian Open, one could make just as many about Agassi had he played it all those years before 1995, and one could point out he almost certainly won the 1990 Australian Open only due to Edberg's injury in the final, etc...Note what Connors himself said of Lendl at the 1992 U.S Open:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgqI5yjlhLY

pc1 02-14-2013 10:00 AM

Pancho Gonzalez won around 27 Hardcourt tournament victories, perhaps more. A lot of the surfaces he won tournaments on aren't known so he may have far more. I counted wood as a hard court by the way.

Rod Laver has won around 30 hardcourt tournaments, perhaps a lot more. Again, it's the same as Gonzalez. I counted wood as hard court and many of the surfaces Laver won tournaments were unknown so he could have won far more. There was on Pro Major won on wood.

Ken Rosewall won around 32 hardcourt tournaments, perhaps more. Rosewall won four Pro Majors on wood.

Bill Tilden won probably around 12 hardcourt tournaments.

Jimmy Connors won 45 hardcourt tournaments and 3 majors on hardcourt.

BobbyOne 02-14-2013 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1 (Post 7213900)
Pancho Gonzalez won around 27 Hardcourt tournament victories, perhaps more. A lot of the surfaces he won tournaments on aren't known so he may have far more. I counted wood as a hard court by the way.

Rod Laver has won around 30 hardcourt tournaments, perhaps a lot more. Again, it's the same as Gonzalez. I counted wood as hard court and many of the surfaces Laver won tournaments were unknown so he could have won far more. There was on Pro Major won on wood.

Ken Rosewall won around 32 hardcourt tournaments, perhaps more. Rosewall won four Pro Majors on wood.

Bill Tilden won probably around 12 hardcourt tournaments.

Jimmy Connors won 45 hardcourt tournaments and 3 majors on hardcourt.

pc1, As far as I know there were two pro majors played on wood in Laver's and Rosewall' time: Wembley and French pro. Thus Laver has won 5 pro majors on wood and Rosewall 9.

pc1 02-14-2013 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne (Post 7214359)
pc1, As far as I know there were two pro majors played on wood in Laver's and Rosewall' time: Wembley and French pro. Thus Laver has won 5 pro majors on wood and Rosewall 9.

You're right. I wasn't thinking with Wembley.

BobbyOne 02-14-2013 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1 (Post 7214368)
You're right. I wasn't thinking with Wembley.

pc1, Rosewall was also elsewhere very successful: He won thrice the pro tournament at St. Louis also known as US Hardcourt Pro.

pc1 02-14-2013 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne (Post 7214408)
pc1, Rosewall was also elsewhere very successful: He won thrice the pro tournament at St. Louis also known as US Hardcourt Pro.

Seems to be extremely successful against Laver at the Pro Majors on fast hardcourt. You would normally expect that the player with superior power in Laver to have the edge.

BobbyOne 02-14-2013 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1 (Post 7214427)
Seems to be extremely successful against Laver at the Pro Majors on fast hardcourt. You would normally expect that the player with superior power in Laver to have the edge.

pc1, Yes, but Laver defeated Rosewall thrice at Wembley plus won the 1965 Wembley after Gimeno had beaten Rosewall in the SFs.

BTURNER 02-14-2013 06:42 PM

Any category that includes both varnished wood courts and todays cement courts is too broad. They could not be more different.

pc1 02-14-2013 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BTURNER (Post 7214926)
Any category that includes both varnished wood courts and todays cement courts is too broad. They could not be more different.

Perhaps but the category is hardcourt, not cement. I figure that wood is pretty hard.

hoodjem 02-14-2013 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1 (Post 7214967)
Perhaps but the category is hardcourt, not cement. I figure that wood is pretty hard.

True that.



Wasn't the World Hardcourt Championship played on clay?

BobbyOne 02-14-2013 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem (Post 7214996)
True that.



Wasn't the World Hardcourt Championship played on clay?

Yes, it was, hoodjem. Also the British and Australian hardcourt events were played on clay.


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