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-   -   Tsongas messed up dual backhands (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=454856)

always_crosscourt 02-15-2013 07:52 AM

Tsongas messed up dual backhands
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHS23...ailpage#t=520s

Check out Tsonga in the following link against Klizan. I had to do a double take - was it really Tsonga playing in that clip? He hit at least two rally backhands as a topspin 1hbh. Not one handed slice. Not a last-ditch desperation passing shot attempt when stretched out way too wide (I can understand this). But rally backhands where he has ample time to set up his 2hbh.

How can Tsonga even be thinking about doing this?

It takes billions upon billions of repetitions of a stroke to get it to a pro level, and it takes learning that stroke from the age of, oh I dunno, TWO years old.

If Tsonga really wants to have a 1hbh, he needs to invent a time machine and go back to when he was two years old and hit thousands of 1hbh's every day for 25 years, and then, maybe then, he'd a have a 1hbh that he could hit to pro standard.

It really baffles me that a mature touring professional can mess around with his technique like this, and it certainly gives fuel to those who claim that Tsonga spends all his time clowning around and never really having the belief to win anything big. Its like: "oh I can't win this match anyway (even though I'm playing Klizan of all people), so may as well mess about hitting 1hbh's to entertain the crowd."

Do you see Nadal or anyone else on tour learning new techniques? Of course not, because in tennis your game is locked into place by the time you're 15 - after that, any time spent trying to acquire new techniques/skills is wasted because you'd need to spend 20 years and billions of hours getting those new techniques/skills up to pro standard. By that time you'll have long retired.

kishnabe 02-15-2013 07:54 AM

At least tell us the time when he hits the one hander when you post a video.....we don't want to waste 19 min of our life to watch that vid.

always_crosscourt 02-15-2013 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kishnabe (Post 7215655)
At least tell us the time when he hits the one hander when you post a video.....we don't want to waste 19 min of our life to watch that vid.

Cool it, badass, I've edited the link so you won't have to spend 20 minutes of your busy and hectic life finding it.

jrs 02-15-2013 08:40 AM

He was just fooling around - up 5 - 0. It is the French way - n'est pas!
But you may be right - they don't win much - but as fan - I enjoy watching most French players - they try amazing shots - not high percentage but amazing. Odd times they pull off the spectacular win Tsonga vs Federer wimbledon - one most amazing matches ever!

flyinghippos101 02-15-2013 08:46 AM

What do you mean? As a regular rally shot, it's not very reliable. But two handers that at least have a very fundamental understanding of one handers go a long way. One handed backhand has greater reach, so it can work wonders on the run. Tsonga using it strictly for this purpose actually may be an evolution in the game.

Observe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4Z-cJL94OU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwAmU7YY8nk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc1HIssojyw

It's nowhere near useless to experiment with the one hander as a two hander. Sure, it's flashy but at the same it it has pragmatic use too. And keep in mind, 2/3 of those matches above he won and the one he didn't was against Murray in a tight three setter

oldhacker 02-15-2013 09:56 AM

I was watching and filming Tsonga practicing at Wimbledon last year and he was hitting only 1 hand topspin backhands. I thought I was going mad at the time as I knew he played with a 2HBH. I put it down to him wanting to rest a damaged left finger (think he fell at Queens and injured it) at the time but perhaps there is more to it !

Tropikal_Knights 02-15-2013 09:59 AM

hmmmm well maybe he just felt liked doing it......

Its not a crime last time I checked.

pjonesy 02-15-2013 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyinghippos101 (Post 7215786)
What do you mean? As a regular rally shot, it's not very reliable. But two handers that at least have a very fundamental understanding of one handers go a long way. One handed backhand has greater reach, so it can work wonders on the run. Tsonga using it strictly for this purpose actually may be an evolution in the game.

Observe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4Z-cJL94OU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwAmU7YY8nk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc1HIssojyw

It's nowhere near useless to experiment with the one hander as a two hander. Sure, it's flashy but at the same it it has pragmatic use too. And keep in mind, 2/3 of those matches above he won and the one he didn't was against Murray in a tight three setter

I think you make an interesting point. I played with a 1 hander for years, quit for about 8 years and started playing again about 2 yrs ago. Decided to switch to the 2 hander. Used it for a year and switched back to 1 hander.

The comment I have heard from EVERY pro at my club and anywhere else,

'You have to pick 1 or the other. You can't use both. Pick 1 or the other.'

Why the hell not!!!!!!! I'm gonna start using both!!!! Thank you for the encouragement.

NickC 02-15-2013 10:17 AM

Tactically speaking, it's much more useful to be able to confidently hit both a 1 handed backhand and a 2 handed backhand rather than just one.

If you have the ability to hit both shots, why not do so?

Narcissist 02-15-2013 10:23 AM

Pretty sure a pro of that level can manage a rally 1hbh without serious risk

Smasher08 02-15-2013 10:31 AM

Personally I think he should hit one-handers all the time. He's that good.

MichaelChang 02-15-2013 10:35 AM

the take-back of 1hbh is different than the 2hbd. When he running to his left and getting ready for his backhand shot, he has to make an early decision, way before the ball bounces, whether this is going to be a 1h or a 2h shot. I do not think this happens routinely at the ATP level matches. Consistency is key. If he keeps switching back and forth, it is only going to cause more errors. I think he is pulling a 1hbd only because he is loose and doesn't care much at that particular moment.

Wilander Fan 02-15-2013 10:38 AM

Any decent player can bring hit both. Tsonga has layed with the one hander more than most and he thiiks its its is natutal shot.

BevelDevil 02-15-2013 10:57 AM

I made a thread/poll a few weeks ago called "If Federer Had Tsonga's backhand." People in that thread said Tsonga had the worst 2hbh in the top 20 (including all the 1-handers).

So maybe there's a good reason for what he's doing. I assume he's worked on his 2hbh and failed. Perhaps he's practising seriously with the 1hbh and plans on using it more often in match play a few years from now. I hope he succeeds.


Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelChang (Post 7216000)
the take-back of 1hbh is different than the 2hbd. When he running to his left and getting ready for his backhand shot, he has to make an early decision, way before the ball bounces, whether this is going to be a 1h or a 2h shot. I do not think this happens routinely at the ATP level matches. Consistency is key. If he keeps switching back and forth, it is only going to cause more errors. I think he is pulling a 1hbd only because he is loose and doesn't care much at that particular moment.

The takeback of a slice is also different from a 2hbh, yet pros make that decision just fine. Also, pros have a ton of experience reading the ball, so that should help mitigate the effects of the greater incoming speed.

MindoverMatter 02-15-2013 01:00 PM

I'm pretty sure I can't be the only one here who knows that he's been doing this for years, right? Ever since he dropped his coach.

kishnabe 02-15-2013 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelChang (Post 7216000)
the take-back of 1hbh is different than the 2hbd. When he running to his left and getting ready for his backhand shot, he has to make an early decision, way before the ball bounces, whether this is going to be a 1h or a 2h shot. I do not think this happens routinely at the ATP level matches. Consistency is key. If he keeps switching back and forth, it is only going to cause more errors. I think he is pulling a 1hbd only because he is loose and doesn't care much at that particular moment.

There is 2hander extenion that is exactly like one hander but with one extra hand on it. Tennisplayer.net talked about 5 different 2 handers......and one of those 2 handers is exactly like a one hander. Maybe Tsonga has that 2 hander where he can naturally hit a one hander if he wanted to. 2011 Wimbledon....his one handers were ridiculous.

Thanks OP for updating the link......

grolson1993 02-15-2013 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickC (Post 7215953)
Tactically speaking, it's much more useful to be able to confidently hit both a 1 handed backhand and a 2 handed backhand rather than just one.

If you have the ability to hit both shots, why not do so?

This. Also, 1 handers when timed really well feel much more natural with the body rotation :) To me, 2 handed feels cramped and uncomfortable, then again, i can't hit a 2 hander to save my life...

BevelDevil 02-15-2013 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kishnabe (Post 7216460)
There is 2hander extenion that is exactly like one hander but with one extra hand on it. Tennisplayer.net talked about 5 different 2 handers......and one of those 2 handers is exactly like a one hander. Maybe Tsonga has that 2 hander where he can naturally hit a one hander if he wanted to. 2011 Wimbledon....his one handers were ridiculous.

That type of 2hbh that is more like the 1hbh is rare. Agassi and Nadal are the only recent pros I know who hit that way, with a straight front arm.

Tsonga's is more conventional (straight back arm).

always_crosscourt 02-15-2013 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BevelDevil (Post 7216057)
I made a thread/poll a few weeks ago called "If Federer Had Tsonga's backhand." People in that thread said Tsonga had the worst 2hbh in the top 20 (including all the 1-handers).

So maybe there's a good reason for what he's doing. I assume he's worked on his 2hbh and failed. Perhaps he's practising seriously with the 1hbh and plans on using it more often in match play a few years from now. I hope he succeeds.




The takeback of a slice is also different from a 2hbh, yet pros make that decision just fine. Also, pros have a ton of experience reading the ball, so that should help mitigate the effects of the greater incoming speed.

A few years from now, when he's on the senior tour?

Even if Tsonga started practicing the 1hbh 15 years ago for 8 hours a day, he wouldn't have enough repetitions in him to get it to the tour level.

There is a reason why everyone says to pick either 1hbh and 2hbh and use it for everything - there aren't enough hours in a lifetime to learn both.

If there were, everyone would be using topspin 1hbh's on shots where it was advantageous to do so (hitting heavy topspin, hitting wide balls), and 2hbh's on shots where it was advantages to do so (return of serve, high balls). But no-one apart from Tsonga does it. They pick one and put up with the weaknesses of their choice. That's how it should be done. You shouldn't have the best of both worlds.

BevelDevil 02-15-2013 05:19 PM

If he plans on playing into his early 30s I think a good 1hbh (at least as a reliable option) would pay off big.


I think you are right about him trying to go exclusively 1hbh. But I think there is time for him to have a usable 1hbh in very specific situations (such as passing shots, on the run, and winner attempts). It worked against Federer at Wimbledon.

If he truly does have the worst backhand in the top 20, and has already worked in vain on improving it, then he doesn't have that much to lose, especially with his all-court ability.


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