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-   -   Hybrid: Which one is better setup,Multi/Poly or Poly/Multi? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=454876)

SJSA 02-15-2013 09:24 AM

Hybrid: Which one is better setup,Multi/Poly or Poly/Multi?
 
I currently string multi in main and poly in cross for comfort and durability.
Many people go for poly/multi for spin and control, I believe.
My stringer told me most feel and effect from main and cross just supports main.
Are there any other benefits for these two different setups?

tyu1314 02-15-2013 12:07 PM

multi main and poly cross give you least durability

pvaudio 02-15-2013 12:12 PM

I honestly think that multi/poly is the most pointless hybrid possible. As said, poly main will be far more durable than the multi main.

SJSA 02-15-2013 01:35 PM

In my case, my cross strings frays first. That's one of reasons I have poly strings in cross.

Bowtiesarecool 02-15-2013 04:27 PM

Lets go over the different setups and what they can do for you:

Multi mains and ploy crosses:
Multifilaments are designed for comfort above all else, with a secondary benefit of having slightly better tension maintenance than syngut. Poly is the compromise between the stiffness of Kevlar and the elasticity of nylon.

Having multifilament mains in a hybrid is counterproductive because you're not gaining the spin-potential of the stiffer poly, and any increase in the overall life of the stringbed is marginal, at best. All you're doing is lowering the power of the stringbed.


Poly mains and multi crosses:
This setup has greater potential with the poly in the place where you would need it. The mains. Multi crosses soften up the feel somewhat, though your stringer is correct in saying the mains influence the feel of the stringbed more. The real benefit of multi crosses here is the nylon material is more flexible, thus allowing the stiff mains to bend out of place and snap back more easily.


A few words about these two particular hybrid combos vs others:
There are really only a couple hybrid setups that hold signifigant advantage over a full bed of whatever...

Gut mains and poly crosses:
Gut has the best resiliency (elasticity) of any string material. It stretches better and does so longer and more consistently than nylon, Kevlar, poly, piano wire, you name it. It of course is also the most comfortable. Gut is an ideal material for mainstrings when combined with poly...

Poly crosses are VERY slippery and pairings like this work extremely efficiently because the inter-string friction is so low. Poly crosses lower the power by stiffening up the stringbed (how much the string bed will deflect upon impact), but increase control and allow gut mains to really stretch and snap back like nobody's buisness. This setup actually gets better as you play because as the poly loses tension, those mains have an even easier time moving in and out of place. It is recommended to use string savers to prevent the poly from sawing through the mains.

Poly mains and gut crosses/syngut crosses:
Poly is stiff and snaps back into place with great energy after impact. A soft, flexible cross allows the mains to do this more easily. Not quite as efficiently as low inter-string friction (which this setup still has, with a few drawbacks), but it nevertheless helps. The difference between this and the reverse setup is that poly loses its elastic qualities FAST. The harder you play, the faster it goes dead. Having a soft cross here will make this more noticeable because the dead mains will stretch, and not snap back at all because there's nothing forcing it to do so. You will no doubt read on this forum how many poly users above 4.0 will restring after as little as 8 hours. Pros change their Racquet every half hour. Thus doing what they do is not economically feasible unless you're touring for money.

Kevlar mains and non-kevlar crosses. Extremely stiff and unforgiving but booooy, the spin is fantastic. Generally not worth the level of shock transfer to your arm.

Syngut mains and poly crosses:
Another hybrid that's not worth experimenting with. Syngut doesn't have the elasticity of gut, nor the stiffness of poly. You gain nothing here over a full bed of nylon.

Bowtiesarecool 02-15-2013 04:49 PM

Cont...

Shaped poly mains/round poly crosses:
Another nice setup for poly lovers. Shaped polys like focus hex, snakebite, etc, dig into the ball well and generate what can be mind boggling amounts of spin. A smooth cross rather than shaped makes it easier for mains to shift out and back in, increasing spin potential.

Multi mains/syngut crosses:
If you need the comfort but want a little more action from the slightly stiffer multi, this is for you. Nylon is great on the arm. Multis are mostly nylon, made to behave a little less like a wet noodle.

Zyex: imagine a string with the properties of gut and poly mixed together and this is what you get. Unfortunately, it like Danny Devito's character in "Twins". It has the softness of gut but the poor elastic qualities of plastic (poly). It has the durability of poly but no spin-generating high energy snap a high stiffness plastic brings. Some people like it for some reason. I have tried it and feel its the exact opposite of what a string should be. Take my opinion with a grain of salt... and sugar, since my op here is salty enough on its own.

netguy 02-15-2013 06:35 PM

Poly mains & Multi crosses for me.
I get comfort and durability going this way...

mikeler 02-15-2013 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by netguy (Post 7217251)
Poly mains & Multi crosses for me.
I get comfort and durability going this way...

When my arm cooperates, this is my favorite setup.

EastAngels2014 02-15-2013 07:22 PM

poly mains and multi crosses is what i go with and sometimes a full poly.

SJSA 02-16-2013 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowtiesarecool (Post 7217102)
Cont...

Shaped poly mains/round poly crosses:
Another nice setup for poly lovers. Shaped polys like focus hex, snakebite, etc, dig into the ball well and generate what can be mind boggling amounts of spin. A smooth cross rather than shaped makes it easier for mains to shift out and back in, increasing spin potential.

Multi mains/syngut crosses:
If you need the comfort but want a little more action from the slightly stiffer multi, this is for you. Nylon is great on the arm. Multis are mostly nylon, made to behave a little less like a wet noodle.

Zyex: imagine a string with the properties of gut and poly mixed together and this is what you get. Unfortunately, it like Danny Devito's character in "Twins". It has the softness of gut but the poor elastic qualities of plastic (poly). It has the durability of poly but no spin-generating high energy snap a high stiffness plastic brings. Some people like it for some reason. I have tried it and feel its the exact opposite of what a string should be. Take my opinion with a grain of salt... and sugar, since my op here is salty enough on its own.

Thank you for your detail explanation.
The best string setup for me is NG/Poly per your info.
I can't handle poly in main due to TE.

Muppet 02-17-2013 02:02 PM

When choosing a cross string, would I want to take the frame's twist weight into account? I once used full Scorpion at 52 lb. in my MuscleWeave 95 with a 59 flex and a low twistweight. When I hit wide of the sweet spot, I could feel the frame deflect.

The same racquet has done very well with a 48/53 hybrid of Cyber Flash 1.25 / Hexy Fiber 1.32. The soft multi crosses match the soft twistweight much better than a poly cross.

pvaudio 02-17-2013 02:45 PM

I have never even heard of twistweight.

uk_skippy 02-17-2013 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowtiesarecool (Post 7217067)
Lets go over the different setups and what they can do for you:

Multi mains and ploy crosses:
Multifilaments are designed for comfort above all else, with a secondary benefit of having slightly better tension maintenance than syngut. Poly is the compromise between the stiffness of Kevlar and the elasticity of nylon.

Having multifilament mains in a hybrid is counterproductive because you're not gaining the spin-potential of the stiffer poly, and any increase in the overall life of the stringbed is marginal, at best. All you're doing is lowering the power of the stringbed.


Poly mains and multi crosses:
This setup has greater potential with the poly in the place where you would need it. The mains. Multi crosses soften up the feel somewhat, though your stringer is correct in saying the mains influence the feel of the stringbed more. The real benefit of multi crosses here is the nylon material is more flexible, thus allowing the stiff mains to bend out of place and snap back more easily.

Gut mains and poly crosses:
Gut has the best resiliency (elasticity) of any string material. It stretches better and does so longer and more consistently than nylon, Kevlar, poly, piano wire, you name it. It of course is also the most comfortable. Gut is an ideal material for mainstrings when combined with poly...

Unfortunately you are wrong in some of what you say. Multi(filament) type strings are designed initially for performance & playability. They are a 'true' syn gut as they try and mimic natural gut. One of those properties is the comfort of the string I'll give you that, but that is not its main goal. Multis don't have as good as tension maintenance as regular nylon syn guts. With tension maintenance gut is king, followed by syn gut, multis then polys.

While you say that having the multi in the mains is counterproductive, it is not. As previous mentioned, most of the feel of the string bed comes from the mains strings. A multi/poly hybrid is merely an alternative set up to a poly/multi. Each set up gives differing characteristics and players using hybrids need to find which set up suits them better. One may only be better than the other only in respect of the player.

You mentioned that by having multis in the mains you lower the power. So by your words that would imply that a poly/multi would be more powerful. That is incorrect. As the main characteristics of the stringed comes from the mains, and multis are more powerful than polys, having a multi there would be more powerful. A full bed of a multi is more powerful than a full bed of poly.

A benefit of having multis or indeed syn gut in the crosses of a hybrid is to reduce the stiff(er) feel of full poly.

A gut/poly hybrid is a good choice because of the benefits of gut. Since nat gut & multis are similar as I've mentioned before, surely there's no reason to dismiss a multi/poly hybrid as you've done. In fact a multi/poly can be a cheaper alternative to gut/poly hybrid to those trying to get a similar type feel.

Regards

Paul

pvaudio 02-17-2013 03:34 PM

Paul, I believe the reason why people don't tend towards multi/poly is for the reason you mentioned. Multifilaments are not nearly as resilient as gut or poly. Elasticity, however, is not the same thing. Elasticity is the ability for the material to return to its original shape after deformation (think about loading up a rubber band to shoot at someone). Resilience, however, is the ability for a material to absorb energy while being deformed and then return the energy (two rubber bands stretched equally far, the more resilient one will fly further). The amount of resilience (technically called the modulus of resilience) therefore is the amount of energy that can be absorbed before something is permanently deformed. When we want good spin, we want BOTH elasticity and resiliency, but if we have to choose, then it should be resiliency. Why? Because if a material can deform an enormous amount, but it does not absorb and return a lot of energy, then that deformation isn't working for us.

That's what we've got when we're talking about a multi main. Multis are incredibly elastic, but since by construction they are not resilient, they do not return a lot of the vertical deflection (which as you know is now considered an integral component of spin) back into the ball. They tend to reach their limit simply by by being deflected laterally by the incoming ball. If you add in a poly cross, there is minimal sliding friction, so the strings become deformed vertically more easily to the point that you end up shortening their life. That's why people rarely use multi/poly for spin and report lower durability.

Poly, meanwhile, is not terribly elastic. In fact, it's not meant to be. What it is, however, is incredibly resilient so that when the strings are deflected, they load up energy and then are able to return it without exceeding their limit. Death occurs when the string surpasses its elastic limit permanently.

Gut is quite resilient, and it is incredibly elastic. By giving the gut a low friction surface, the gut can make the most of its elasticity as it does not have to overcome as much inter-string friction. Using a multifilament in its place, the string just doesn't return as much incoming energy into the ball as natural gut. Using a poly in the mains instead lets you reap the benefits of having a lot of resilience although with less elasticity. The multi in the crosses gives the string bed some more elasticity in the lateral direction, and this manifests itself in the form of power and comfort/damping.

I guess in short, if you hit flat, then multi/poly shouldn't make much difference vs. gut/poly in terms of spin. If you hit with a lot of spin, then the multi makes little sense in the mains with poly in the crosses.

Muppet 02-17-2013 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pvaudio (Post 7221049)
I have never even heard of twistweight.

Twistweight is the torsional rigidity or inertia of a racquet. The resistance to twist.

pvaudio 02-17-2013 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muppet (Post 7221194)
Twistweight is the torsional rigidity or inertia of a racquet. The resistance to twist.

Haha I should have clarified, I knew what it was simply by name, but have never heard of it being a factor in choosing a cross string.

Muppet 02-17-2013 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pvaudio (Post 7221201)
Haha I should have clarified, I knew what it was simply by name, but have never heard of it being a factor in choosing a cross string.

Its a spec used in TWU.
I haven't ever heard of it as a factor for choosing strings either, but the Physics BA that I am has me wondering about this.

Hi I'm Ray 02-17-2013 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pvaudio (Post 7221154)
Paul, I believe the reason why people don't tend towards multi/poly is for the reason you mentioned. Multifilaments are not nearly as resilient as gut or poly. Elasticity, however, is not the same thing. Elasticity is the ability for the material to return to its original shape after deformation (think about loading up a rubber band to shoot at someone). Resilience, however, is the ability for a material to absorb energy while being deformed and then return the energy (two rubber bands stretched equally far, the more resilient one will fly further). The amount of resilience (technically called the modulus of resilience) therefore is the amount of energy that can be absorbed before something is permanently deformed. When we want good spin, we want BOTH elasticity and resiliency, but if we have to choose, then it should be resiliency. Why? Because if a material can deform an enormous amount, but it does not absorb and return a lot of energy, then that deformation isn't working for us.

That's what we've got when we're talking about a multi main. Multis are incredibly elastic, but since by construction they are not resilient, they do not return a lot of the vertical deflection (which as you know is now considered an integral component of spin) back into the ball. They tend to reach their limit simply by by being deflected laterally by the incoming ball. If you add in a poly cross, there is minimal sliding friction, so the strings become deformed vertically more easily to the point that you end up shortening their life. That's why people rarely use multi/poly for spin and report lower durability.

Poly, meanwhile, is not terribly elastic. In fact, it's not meant to be. What it is, however, is incredibly resilient so that when the strings are deflected, they load up energy and then are able to return it without exceeding their limit. Death occurs when the string surpasses its elastic limit permanently.

Gut is quite resilient, and it is incredibly elastic. By giving the gut a low friction surface, the gut can make the most of its elasticity as it does not have to overcome as much inter-string friction. Using a multifilament in its place, the string just doesn't return as much incoming energy into the ball as natural gut. Using a poly in the mains instead lets you reap the benefits of having a lot of resilience although with less elasticity. The multi in the crosses gives the string bed some more elasticity in the lateral direction, and this manifests itself in the form of power and comfort/damping.

I guess in short, if you hit flat, then multi/poly shouldn't make much difference vs. gut/poly in terms of spin. If you hit with a lot of spin, then the multi makes little sense in the mains with poly in the crosses.

Great explanation.

uk_skippy 02-17-2013 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pvaudio (Post 7221154)
That's why people rarely use multi/poly for spin and report lower durability.


Quote:

Originally Posted by pvaudio (Post 7221154)
I guess in short, if you hit flat, then multi/poly shouldn't make much difference vs. gut/poly in terms of spin. If you hit with a lot of spin, then the multi makes little sense in the mains with poly in the crosses.

I agree with the points you've made as they mirror what I'm trying to say. As with all string set-ups, players need to understand what they want from the strings they choose and how it fits into their game, but also how it works in their rqts. This is the same reason why people choose the rqts they do based on their playing style.

If someone wants a spin set-up I wouldn't recommended a multi/poly. That set-up would work well for a player hitting flat(ter), although the poly cross will help with a bit of spin. It'll also work well in denser string patterns, but not exclusively.


In short (and not sure if you have this phrase in USA), but it's horses for courses; and going back to a previous post I quoted, just because 1 set-up doesn't work under certain circumstances it shouldn't be dismissed.

Regards

Paul

fgs 02-18-2013 12:05 AM

SJSA,

you mention that you string multi in the mains for comfort and durability. what set-up you use currently and what durability do you get out of it would be an interesting information.

i'm playing hybrids myself for almost four years now, but i put the poly in the mains, since i have a heavily topspin oriented game. i tried it out with multi in the mains too, but the durability was from 15 minutes including warm-up to slightly less than a two hours hitting session which included an hour of intensive practice and then the remainder matchplay, so this definitely is not an option for me.


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