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-   -   Wrist lag and straight arm forehand (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=454898)

isilra 02-15-2013 04:37 PM

Wrist lag and straight arm forehand
 
As a double bender, i have never understood why Fed and Nadal both uses straight arm forehands till today. I have tried to use straight arm today, and surprisingly i had a way better lag effect than ever. Never understood "Pull the racquet butt towards the ball" thing but now it seems possible for me to do that with a straight arm. Also, first you need to turn your shoulders to make your arm straight, so it allows a more efficient use of kinetic chain and SSC. Do you think i should change to a straight arm ?

Cheetah 02-15-2013 05:19 PM

You can point/pull the butt at the ball with any setup. They use straight arm because either a) it's more natural for them and/or b) straight arm's have more leverage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AJYfkJ4hc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9cR_S7jakA

isilra 02-15-2013 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah (Post 7217142)
You can point/pull the butt at the ball with any setup. They use straight arm because either a) it's more natural for them and/or b) straight arm's have more leverage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AJYfkJ4hc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9cR_S7jakA

Well, i think realized something now. Even Djoker and Kolschreiber both have double bend, they go through the ball with their elbows to get the lag motion. So it's something like leading with elbow in backswing, also leading with elbow in forward swing ?

Cheetah 02-15-2013 05:38 PM

definitely leading elbow in forward swing.

isilra 02-15-2013 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah (Post 7217172)
definitely leading elbow in forward swing.

I'm so stupid that i have never realized that the shoulder and the arm should stay in the same plane and the racquet should be the only one who should come from behind. I was always ruining my kinetic chain by trying to keep my arm and elbow back when i turn my shoulders. I'm so glad that i made this thread. It's like i have found my missing son after 20 years of search lol, thank you man.

Cheetah 02-15-2013 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isilra (Post 7217182)
I'm so stupid that i have never realized that the shoulder and the arm should stay in the same plane and the racquet should be the only one who should come from behind. I was always ruining my kinetic chain by trying to keep my arm and elbow back when i turn my shoulders. I'm so glad that i made this thread. It's like i have found my missing son after 20 years of search lol, thank you man.

you want 'racquet lag'. not 'arm lag'. notice how djoko's/fed/nadal/anyone good keeps the upper arm in line with the torso during the swing. the upper arm is moving with the torso/shoulders. the forearm/wrist is loose and lags the racquet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq09yHPmKh0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_6hC2qKnKw

isilra 02-15-2013 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah (Post 7217194)
you want 'racquet lag'. not 'arm lag'. notice how djoko's/fed/nadal/anyone good keeps the upper arm in line with the torso during the swing. the upper arm is moving with the torso/shoulders. the forearm/wrist is loose and lags the racquet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq09yHPmKh0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_6hC2qKnKw

Yes, i clearly understand now. I was always thinking it like a whole arm lag instead of a racquet lag like you mentioned, so it always destroyed my strokes. I have been telling myself "it should not be so hard, i'm doing something wrong" but never found what was wrong till now, thanks.

DropShotArtist 02-17-2013 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah (Post 7217194)
you want 'racquet lag'. not 'arm lag'. notice how djoko's/fed/nadal/anyone good keeps the upper arm in line with the torso during the swing. the upper arm is moving with the torso/shoulders. the forearm/wrist is loose and lags the racquet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq09yHPmKh0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_6hC2qKnKw

Would you then say the below is incorrect?


Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 3233477)
Whether hitting with a square stance, fully open stance, or a semi-open stance, it is important to use the legs & a hip rotation that is followed by a torso rotation before the power is transferred to the shoulder and arm links (of the kinetic chain).

.


psv255 02-17-2013 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DropShotArtist (Post 7220940)
Would you then say the below is incorrect?

The two statements are compatible, since after the torso rotation you would transfer more energy to the upper arm/shoulder and then the forearm/hand.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (and pardon term misuse): Torso, shoulder and upper arm are visibly one unit, but undergo mechanical "stress" individually in sequence, each time multiplying the force originated from the former. So, by the time your your energy builds up to the racquet, there's a healthy lag between hand and racquet.

Greg G 02-17-2013 02:08 PM

I don't think the above statement is wrong (post # 8 ), but the upper arm should not lag too far behind the shoulder, as that would break the kinetic chain/dissipate some of the energy.

Edit: psv255 said it better :)

Cheetah 02-17-2013 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DropShotArtist (Post 7220940)
Would you then say the below is incorrect?

i think he is correct.

NE1for10is? 02-17-2013 03:00 PM

I notice in the Djoker video above that he is hitting the ball more out to the side than Federer does, who hits pretty far out in front. I'm wondering out loud if that is why Federer uses a straight arm, because it lets him hit more earlier and more in front?

DropShotArtist 02-17-2013 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah (Post 7221023)
i think he is correct.

But if you keep the arm in line with torso as you said then the upper arm can't really be loose since if it was loose it would lag behind. And if it's not loose then there really is no transfer from torso to upper arm since it would be rotating as a unit with only the forearm and wrist lagging.

Dellon 02-17-2013 04:54 PM

For me, the best analogy for a straight arm forehand is stone throwing ( or a handball - I used to play a long time ago).
I couldn't imagine someone could throw a stone with a bent arm. I couldn't hit a tennis ball with a bent arm in a million years ... only when I look at that is painful enough, looks like someone broke those people's arms and made them hold a racquet and hit tennis balls .... only because 99% of the pros are using it it doesn't make it natural at all ... all the strokes in tennis are straight arm at contact , why would be this so different?

http://www.visualphotos.com/image/2x...e_into_the_sea

psv255 02-17-2013 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DropShotArtist (Post 7221261)
But if you keep the arm in line with torso as you said then the upper arm can't really be loose since if it was loose it would lag behind. And if it's not loose then there really is no transfer from torso to upper arm since it would be rotating as a unit with only the forearm and wrist lagging.

The upper arm would lag if shoulder is loose, which it really isn't.
There's nothing preventing energy transfer if upper arm doesn't lag, because a lot of that energy goes into external shoulder rotation in the forward swing rather than breaking the plane of the torso.

Cheetah 02-17-2013 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DropShotArtist (Post 7221261)
But if you keep the arm in line with torso as you said then the upper arm can't really be loose since if it was loose it would lag behind. And if it's not loose then there really is no transfer from torso to upper arm since it would be rotating as a unit with only the forearm and wrist lagging.

it should be loose. try standing with your arms to your side and your elbows bent a little. rotate your torso and try to keep your upper arm in line with your torso. no problem right? it takes virtually no energy or muscle to do that. it pretty much just happens. yes, i understand there is probably some muscle usage involved but it's very very little.

There should be no tension in your biceps or triceps or forearm. elbow is loose to allow forearm movement. the wrist is loose for the same reason. you want to maintain the hitting structure of your arm and racquet throughtout the stroke but you want to be loose to allow it to breathe and stretch. You want to swing fast, not hard. (i'm talking regular rally balls here not special circumstances/situations)

near contact you can activate things for spin etc like some pronation or wrist deviation etc but those movements, ideally, should not take a lot of muscle use, only very little. If you have the right contact point for your grip and swing style and a good setup at the end of takeback before the first forward movement then just before contact your arm and wrist will just be 'itchin' to pronate and deviate etc and if you just apply a little twist those actions will happen fast, smooth and naturally.

Mahboob Khan 02-17-2013 06:56 PM

Federal and Nadal's forehands: Watch them carefully. Yes, their hitting arms are straight at contact but bent in the backswing and follow-through.

I think straight arm at contact is not good for every one. It might cause you pain.

pkshooter 02-17-2013 07:12 PM

Straight arm is easier, one less moving part.

10isfreak 02-18-2013 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahboob Khan (Post 7221529)
Federal and Nadal's forehands: Watch them carefully. Yes, their hitting arms are straight at contact but bent in the backswing and follow-through.

I think straight arm at contact is not good for every one. It might cause you pain.

Actually, the arm extension is nearly completed before the forward swing for Federer, if not completed... Nadal clearly extends his arm later during swing than Federer does, however.

As for your comment regarding pain, I do not see the point. What would make it more prone to injuries? Hitting can't cause the arm to hyper-extend and, since in both types of hitting position you're making contact with some sort of wrist extension, I doubt there is any more risk for that same issue at the wrist either.

Besides, for consistency, some people find it easier to set up with at more extreme position at the elbow. As stated above, it's one less part that risk moving.

isilra 02-18-2013 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah (Post 7221412)
it should be loose. try standing with your arms to your side and your elbows bent a little. rotate your torso and try to keep your upper arm in line with your torso. no problem right? it takes virtually no energy or muscle to do that. it pretty much just happens. yes, i understand there is probably some muscle usage involved but it's very very little.

There should be no tension in your biceps or triceps or forearm. elbow is loose to allow forearm movement. the wrist is loose for the same reason. you want to maintain the hitting structure of your arm and racquet throughtout the stroke but you want to be loose to allow it to breathe and stretch. You want to swing fast, not hard. (i'm talking regular rally balls here not special circumstances/situations)

near contact you can activate things for spin etc like some pronation or wrist deviation etc but those movements, ideally, should not take a lot of muscle use, only very little. If you have the right contact point for your grip and swing style and a good setup at the end of takeback before the first forward movement then just before contact your arm and wrist will just be 'itchin' to pronate and deviate etc and if you just apply a little twist those actions will happen fast, smooth and naturally.

Since i have corrected the movement (racquet lag, not arm lag), it's almost been impossible for me to hit a ball flat without contact pronation and i have no idea what causes this. Only thing i know is, it's an unconscious motion and i don't use any muscle stress to activate it. I think it's about where you contact the ball like you explained.


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