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-   -   Connors v Borg 1978 and the no.1 ranking (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=455563)

Xavier G 02-22-2013 11:30 AM

Connors v Borg 1978 and the no.1 ranking
 
If you look at the calender year 1978 (including the Grand Prix Masters which was held in January 78 ), the year-end number number 1 ranking looks very close based on results. Jimbo finished the year no.1 by the official rankings, we know of course, Borg won 2 Grand Slam tournaments to 1 for Jimmy. Jimmy finished winner of the Grand Prix points standings for the year. Bjorn was voted ITF World Champion.

According to the records I looked at, I have Connors also winning Philadelphia, Denver, Memphis, Rotterdam, Birmingham (Eng.), Washington, Stowe, US Open and Sydney.

Borg won Birmingham (US), Pepsi Grand Slam, Las Vegas WCT, Milan, Italian Open, French Open, Wimbledon, Bastad and Tokyo.

It seems they had a pretty similar number of losses.

In Grand Slam wins, Borg is ahead, but Connors also has the Masters.
In official meetings again counting the Masters as happening in 1978, it's 2-2 in official matches between the pair. There are at least a couple of other matches in exo type events, of which they won one each.

I'm asking because I think some good tennis judges at the time had Connors ahead of Borg, most had Borg as number one. I give the edge to Bjorn, narrowly, myself, but it's close. Any thoughts? Any additional tournament info anyone has would be useful too.

Xavier G 02-22-2013 11:34 AM

And where the emoticon is above, that should be down as January 78. Thanks.

Carsomyr 02-22-2013 12:04 PM

Even with the Masters (though it should be the one in January of the next year that reflects the "true" ranking of the previous year in retrospect), I don't think it's particularly close. While Connors won some big titles in '78, he also won some titles that aren't particularly impressive (e.g. Memphis, Birmingham, Stowe).

mattennis 02-22-2013 12:32 PM

The ATP ranking ( prior to 1990 ) was computed as an average: "total points divided by nş of (computable) tournaments played".

Not all the tournaments played (even some with strong-fields) were computable to the rankings.

This was the system and all players knew it.

Under this system Connors was nş1 in 1978 (and in 1977 ahead of Vilas) because his average "points per (computable) tournament played" was a bit higher than Borg's.

Since 1990, the "average computation" was changed to "the total sum of the best 14 results" (taking into account BONUS points too, that were a good fraction of the total points of any player).

They tweaked things (changing the points awarded, varying some other things) several times during the 90s also.

From 2000 (or so) M-1000 (and GS) started to be mandatory and 18 + WTF tournaments were computable ( instead of 14 ).

Well, there were other changes too that I have not mentioned because I am already tired.

Xavier G 02-22-2013 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carsomyr (Post 7230660)
Even with the Masters (though it should be the one in January of the next year that reflects the "true" ranking of the previous year in retrospect), I don't think it's particularly close. While Connors won some big titles in '78, he also won some titles that aren't particularly impressive (e.g. Memphis, Birmingham, Stowe).

The likes of Stowe were average, true, but Memphis and the Birmingham grass court event Connors won in 1978 were decent enough, imo. Connors beat Raul Ramirez easily in three sets in a best of five final. Ironically Borg won the weaker Birmingham event earlier in the year that Jimbo usually won. Funny game.

Yeah, the Masters should always have been held in the same calendar year they pertained to.

I thought Connors had a good 78, one of his best, though I do give Borg the edge myself. It's close enough to be a talking point though or at least I hope so.

Xavier G 02-22-2013 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattennis (Post 7230734)
The ATP ranking ( prior to 1990 ) was computed as an average: "total points divided by nş of (computable) tournaments played".

Not all the tournaments played (even some with strong-fields) were computable to the rankings.

This was the system and all players knew it.

Under this system Connors was nş1 in 1978 (and in 1977 ahead of Vilas) because his average "points per (computable) tournament played" was a bit higher than Borg's.

Since 1990, the "average computation" was changed to "the total sum of the best 14 results" (taking into account BONUS points too, that were a good fraction of the total points of any player).

They tweaked things (changing the points awarded, varying some other things) several times during the 90s also.

From 2000 (or so) M-1000 (and GS) started to be mandatory and 18 + WTF tournaments were computable ( instead of 14 ).

Well, there were other changes too that I have not mentioned because I am already tired.

Thanks for the information.

tudwell 02-22-2013 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xavier G (Post 7230592)
And where the emoticon is above, that should be down as January 78. Thanks.

The Masters held in January 1978 belonged to the 1977 season. McEnroe won the 1978 Masters, which was held in January 1979.

Xavier G 02-22-2013 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tudwell (Post 7230795)
The Masters held in January 1978 belonged to the 1977 season. McEnroe won the 1978 Masters, which was held in January 1979.

Yes, I know. They had to qualify through the year's results to get to the Masters. Connors only finished in eighth place in the Grand Prix standings for the 1977 Masters (held in January 1978 ) and then won it. Thanks.

Xavier G 02-22-2013 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xavier G (Post 7230898)
Yes, I know. They had to qualify through the year's results to get to the Masters. Connors only finished in eighth place in the Grand Prix standings for the 1977 Masters (held in January 1978) and then won it. Thanks.

January 1978.

Nadal_Power 02-22-2013 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattennis (Post 7230734)
The ATP ranking ( prior to 1990 ) was computed as an average: "total points divided by nş of (computable) tournaments played".

Not all the tournaments played (even some with strong-fields) were computable to the rankings.

This was the system and all players knew it.

Under this system Connors was nş1 in 1978 (and in 1977 ahead of Vilas) because his average "points per (computable) tournament played" was a bit higher than Borg's.

Since 1990, the "average computation" was changed to "the total sum of the best 14 results" (taking into account BONUS points too, that were a good fraction of the total points of any player).

They tweaked things (changing the points awarded, varying some other things) several times during the 90s also.

From 2000 (or so) M-1000 (and GS) started to be mandatory and 18 + WTF tournaments were computable ( instead of 14 ).

Well, there were other changes too that I have not mentioned because I am already tired.

Can you please tell more about pre-90 ranking, when you find time of course

hoodjem 02-22-2013 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xavier G (Post 7230592)
And where the emoticon is above, that should be down as January 78. Thanks.

To remove the emoticon, you can edit it and then put a space between the 8 and the parenthesis.

Xavier G 02-22-2013 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem (Post 7230905)
To remove the emoticon, you can edit it and then put a space between the 8 and the parenthesis.

Thanks! I'll attempt it.

jimbo333 02-22-2013 02:08 PM

There is no doubt that Jimmy was no.1 in 1978. He was also no.1 in 1977, yes that's right. People confuse No.1 ranking with "the best player". In 1977 Jimmy got to 2 GS finals, he didn't play the other 2, and he won the WCT and Masters. He had the best average results for the year, not head to head, not who was the best player, but he was ranked no.1, check the record books. (Awaits people talking about titles, head to head records, and who was the best player etc, none of which is relevant to the No.1 ranking). Anyway back to 1978, it was definitely Jimmy Connors!

Xavier G 02-22-2013 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo333 (Post 7230914)
There is no doubt that Jimmy was no.1 in 1978. He was also no.1 in 1977, yes that's right. People confuse No.1 ranking with "the best player". In 1977 Jimmy got to 2 GS finals, he didn't play the other 2, and he won the WCT and Masters. He had the best average results for the year, not head to head, not who was the best player, but he was ranked no.1, check the record books. (Awaits people talking about titles, head to head records, and who was the best player etc, none of which is relevant to the No.1 ranking). Anyway back to 1978, it was definitely Jimmy Connors!

1978 is certainly close in my eyes, my fellow Jimmy Connors fan. Borg did win 2 Slam events to Jimmy's 1 though. I wanted to give JC 1978, but maybe Borg winning the Channel Slam double of RG and Wimby gives him the nod.

I don't think I can give Jimmy the 1977 no.1 ranking judging by results, even though he topped the computer.

Cheers anyway!

jimbo333 02-22-2013 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xavier G (Post 7231001)
1978 is certainly close in my eyes, my fellow Jimmy Connors fan. Borg did win 2 Slam events to Jimmy's 1 though. I wanted to give JC 1978, but maybe Borg winning the Channel Slam double of RG and Wimby gives him the nod.

I don't think I can give Jimmy the 1977 no.1 ranking judging by results, even though he topped the computer.

Cheers anyway!

Hey that's OK:)

I do try to be fair, but someone has to stick up for Connors. The computer did have him at one, so he was officially the no.1 player in 77, but not the "best player" that year, which was Borg I think (although Vilas was brilliant that year). However I do genuinely think in 78 Jimmy was actually the best player.

kiki 02-22-2013 03:12 PM

Rome equivalent to Phily, neither of both won the Masters ( John mc Enroe) or WCT title (Vitas Gerulaitis), so at the end, Borg´s two slams as opposed to Jimmy´s one shall give Borg a close edge.

Please, stop placing badly every year Masters.The Masters was not the start of the season but the close up of the former one, even if the event was held at the beginning of the next year.The title Connors won, over Borg, belonged to the 1977 season, just as the title that mac won in jan 79, belonged to the 78 season.

Xavier G 02-22-2013 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki (Post 7231015)
Rome equivalent to Phily, neither of both won the Masters ( John mc Enroe) or WCT title (Vitas Gerulaitis), so at the end, Borg´s two slams as opposed to Jimmy´s one shall give Borg a close edge.

Please, stop placing badly every year Masters.The Masters was not the start of the season but the close up of the former one, even if the event was held at the beginning of the next year.The title Connors won, over Borg, belonged to the 1977 season, just as the title that mac won in jan 79, belonged to the 78 season.

Yes, kiki, I know in reality the title Connors won, over Borg, belonged to the 1977 season.
It took place in the 1978 calendar year though, so the premise of this thread is IF you include this Masters as a 1978 event, it is pretty close between Borg and Connors for actual tennis results in the calendar year 1978. It's just a different way of looking at the 1978 year, kiki.

kiki 02-22-2013 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xavier G (Post 7231030)
Yes, kiki, I know in reality the title Connors won, over Borg, belonged to the 1977 season.
It took place in the 1978 calendar year though, so the premise of this thread is IF you include this Masters as a 1978 event, it is pretty close between Borg and Connors for actual tennis results in the calendar year 1978. It's just a different way of looking at the 1978 year, kiki.

yes, XavierG, and you are right.In any case, both beat each other at least once in a major either in 77 or in 78.

BTw, 1977 WCT tour was incredible, possibly the best ever as far as big names are concerned.Borg and Vilas being the only ones absent, though both entered the Montecarlo event, and both reached the final (Borg took the title in staraight sets).So, the 77 WCT tour had everything you wanted for real.

Xavier G 02-22-2013 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo333 (Post 7231007)
Hey that's OK:)

I do try to be fair, but someone has to stick up for Connors. The computer did have him at one, so he was officially the no.1 player in 77, but not the "best player" that year, which was Borg I think (although Vilas was brilliant that year). However I do genuinely think in 78 Jimmy was actually the best player.

Yes, jimbo333, it's my thread, so as a Connors fan, I'll give Jimmy the no.1 ranking for 1978 then! He did finish top, after all. Cheers, I've seen the light!

Xavier G 02-22-2013 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki (Post 7231035)
yes, XavierG, and you are right.In any case, both beat each other at least once in a major either in 77 or in 78.

BTw, 1977 WCT tour was incredible, possibly the best ever as far as big names are concerned.Borg and Vilas being the only ones absent, though both entered the Montecarlo event, and both reached the final (Borg took the title in staraight sets).So, the 77 WCT tour had everything you wanted for real.

Yes, kiki and a 1977 WCT Dallas final between Borg and Connors would have been great. Who would have won that?!? Who knows. Good work.


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