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-   -   Open Stance 2HBH? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=455783)

lolminraise 02-24-2013 09:47 PM

Open Stance 2HBH?
 
I've been looking at lot of youtube videos on the backhand and most of them have a closed or neutral stance, but then I run into this bollettieri video talking about how awesome the open stance 2HBH is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkcGItjlULQ

I've been trying it out a bit, but I can't seem to be able to hit through the ball well. I'm wondering what you guys think if this. When's the best time to even use an open stance backhand?

maxpotapov 02-24-2013 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lolminraise (Post 7234796)
I've been looking at lot of youtube videos on the backhand and most of them have a closed or neutral stance, but then I run into this bollettieri video talking about how awesome the open stance 2HBH is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkcGItjlULQ

I've been trying it out a bit, but I can't seem to be able to hit through the ball well. I'm wondering what you guys think if this. When's the best time to even use an open stance backhand?

This is suboptimal position from so many angles.
Azarenka does it routinely though...

SystemicAnomaly 02-24-2013 11:25 PM

It can be used effectively for returning serve and for returning shots out wide. The William sisters use the open stance quite a lot.

Are you coiling your torso when preparing to hit the open stance. You chest should be facing the side fence more-or-less. Notice the orientation of the feet, hips and torso in the video. Are you driving off your back leg (left leg or a righty).

vandre 02-25-2013 12:05 AM

it works best i find for returning serve or dtl. i've posted elsewhere though that it tends to make it much more difficult to hit cc. not just me, this is from the pros i went to straighten me out.

maxpotapov 02-25-2013 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 7234862)
It can be used effectively for returning serve and for returning shots out wide. The William sisters use the open stance quite a lot.

Are you coiling your torso when preparing to hit the open stance. You chest should be facing the side fence more-or-less. Notice the orientation of the feet, hips and torso in the video. Are you driving off your back leg (left leg or a righty).

You mean it's only good for stretching and sliding to your far left? But it takes quite a lot of elasticity, no wonder we only mention women in that regard. Of all men I can only think of Djokovic... Anyway it's quite taxing to try to get behind the ball when you are stretched out wide.

Govnor 02-25-2013 05:53 AM

I only ever use this if I'm in a position where I cannot move my feet into the position I want fast enough (returning etc). It can work out perfectly fine, but I feel I lose some control over where I want the ball to go.

tennis_pr0 02-25-2013 06:03 AM

It is good when you don't have time to set up, like previous posts have mentioned. I have two college students I am teaching now, both with good two handed backhands, and I am working with them both on this.

It definitely helps on the return of serve and on out wide balls. Return of serve because you have such little time to reach and you are starting in open stance (the ready position). Out wide balls as well because you have less time to get to them and when you recover, recovering from an open stance when you are out wide is more effective as you will have better balance to bring yourself back to the middle of the court.

It's important to time your step with your outside leg (left leg if you are right handed) so that you take a nice big step leading into the open stance shot. Also, the mechanics such as hip and shoulder turn preparation are still the same, it's just not as much of a turn and not a linear shot where you are bringing your weight forward like you would in a closed or neutral stance.

I teach all my students to hit this shot. Most of the backhands you hit are better hit with a closed or neutral stance, but it is important to know how to hit with the open stance as well. Even with a one handed backhand, it's important to know how to hit with an open stance. I have a one handed backhand and hit with an open stance when the situation calls.

maxpotapov 02-25-2013 06:41 AM

^^ I think it's always good to define open stance first. Like I can turn my whole body to the side while still having both feet on the baseline. It is still open stance even though I hit the ball all the way to my side. Requires much flexibility to reach for the ball this way and I would not do it a lot on the hard courts.
But for many players "open stance" means "facing the net when approaching the ball and hitting the ball in front of body". And such definition is very counterproductive.

SystemicAnomaly 02-25-2013 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxpotapov (Post 7234878)
You mean it's only good for stretching and sliding to your far left? But it takes quite a lot of elasticity, no wonder we only mention women in that regard. Of all men I can only think of Djokovic... Anyway it's quite taxing to try to get behind the ball when you are stretched out wide.

Not so. I am very inflexible, primarily due to age (61), but I manage to hit open stance BHs (both 1-handed slice and the 2HBh) in some situations when pulled out wide. I usually hit the ball x-court but after watching the IMG video, I will believe that I will be able to hit the DTL shot effectively more often.

Buford T Justice 02-25-2013 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxpotapov (Post 7234855)
This is suboptimal position from so many angles.
Azarenka does it routinely though...

Serena seems to do it all the time as well.

Nellie 02-25-2013 02:40 PM

Even with an open stance, you need to swing through the ball to get your arms fully extended before finishing over the shoulder. I find that it is helpful to think of the stroke is more of squarish motion and not a circle (note that you are shifting weight sideways with your body during contact to power the stroke, but should still be extending out forward and through the ball with your arms). Extension is key to the 2-hander.

JohnYandell 02-25-2013 02:48 PM

The key to understanding open stance on the two hander is grip and hitting arm position. The women are hitting with both arms bent and more of a left handed emphasis--often like Serena with a weaker bottom hand grip. They will also-- like a forehand--thend to be more open with the torso at contact.

Some men, such as Davydenko use this config. But most men are hitting with the back arm straight or near straight--Murray, Djok. Or even both arms straight--Rafa, Agassi.

The dynamics are different with stronger grips and more bottom arm pull. The config is bent/straight or straight/straight It is a backhand hit more with both arms--not as much a lefthanded forehand. As such it resembles a one-hander is some ways.

The preferred stance is closed--or netural near the center of the court although obviously these players also use open.
The torso because of this stance and arm config is much more closed at contact.

Buford T Justice 02-25-2013 02:56 PM

The more I see all these drastic variations in technique of the best players, how "good" technique has changed over time, etc....the more I think that it hardly matters how one hits the ball as long as it goes where you want it and with some amount of pace on it!

lolminraise 02-25-2013 03:13 PM

I'll going to experiment with it a bit today. Seems like people think its only for returning serve or a stretched out wide shot.

LeeD 02-25-2013 03:16 PM

Why do you think it should be different than an openstanced forehand?
Same thing...it's the last and plant step, hit ball, you're on your way to recovery.
It doesn't apply the most power to your 2hbh, but like the forehand, it works just fine and can go sharp angle CC much easier than a typical closed or neutral stance.

SystemicAnomaly 02-25-2013 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buford T Justice (Post 7236099)
The more I see all these drastic variations in technique of the best players, how "good" technique has changed over time, etc....the more I think that it hardly matters how one hits the ball as long as it goes where you want it and with some amount of pace on it!

This thinking could get you into trouble. The modern game puts more stresses on the body than ever before. In the past decade or two, we've seen more injuries of the hip, shoulder, lower back, knees, etc. You've got to consider more than pace & accuracy if you want longevity in the modern game.

Buford T Justice 02-25-2013 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 7236165)
This thinking could get you into trouble. The modern game puts more stresses on the body than ever before. In the past decade or two, we've seen more injuries of the hip, shoulder, lower back, knees, etc. You've got to consider more than pace & accuracy if you want longevity in the modern game.

Just my thoughts as I've been pondering this a bit lately......

My thought is not really about playing the modern game.....it's questioning that this style is 100% better for everyone.

For every pro or expert that says "this is how you should hit the ball", there is another which says/does the opposite and is perhaps just as successful.

When I read old tennis books, I see a way of playing being taught as "correct" that would be called "incorrect" today.

I also see quite a number of higher level amateurs which play more old school tennis and it works just fine. Of course, I am not one of them....but am seriously considering learning the old school game for no other reason that longevity.

Would this style work at the ATP level...probably not, but that isn't really of concern to the average player.

SStrikerR 02-25-2013 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandre (Post 7234875)
it works best i find for returning serve or dtl. i've posted elsewhere though that it tends to make it much more difficult to hit cc. not just me, this is from the pros i went to straighten me out.

I don't know why you find this. I mean if you're stretched really really wide and can barely reach the ball then maybe. But otherwise it's easier to hit crosscourt than DTL. But yeah, it's very useful to be able to hit a topspin or flat shot when stretched wide, as opposed to having to hit a slice every time. The more options the better, assuming you know how to use them.

SystemicAnomaly 02-25-2013 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buford T Justice (Post 7236326)
... My thought is not really about playing the modern game.....it's questioning that this style is 100% better for everyone.

For every pro or expert that says "this is how you should hit the ball", there is another which says/does the opposite and is perhaps just as successful.

When I read old tennis books, I see a way of playing being taught as "correct" that would be called "incorrect" today.

I also see quite a number of higher level amateurs which play more old school tennis and it works just fine. Of course, I am not one of them....but am seriously considering learning the old school game for no other reason that longevity.

Would this style work at the ATP level...probably not, but that isn't really of concern to the average player
.

Variety and low-stress biomechanics might be the keys to longevity. Federer is a good example of this. He has quite a bit of variety in his game with solid mechanics and he glides around the court. Contrast this with the harder styles of Nadal and Djoko who both put a lot of G forces on their joints repeatedly.

Roger employs a variety of stances -- open, neutral and closed. Contrast this with Hewitt and Kuerten who both hit most of their FHs with a fully open stance. Both have had serious injuries to the right hip. I saw Hewitt, who has already had hip surgery, play recently (SAP Open). He was still hitting a lot of open stance FHs. And he was hitting some jumping (mule-kick) BHs as well. This undoubtedly puts added stress to that right hip. Others who've had recent hip issues include Haas, Nalbandian, and (Brian) Baker.

It might be best for you to learn both classic and modern styles and try to employ variety in your game. It's ok to get creative with your shot-making but make sure that you are not setting yourself up for overuse injuries in the process. Studying Federer's footwork would not be a bad idea either.

JohnYandell 02-25-2013 07:24 PM

If the preparation and the set up to the ball are correct there is no problem going crosscourt off the closed stance.


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