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-   -   so, it's not pronation after all (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=456204)

luvforty 02-28-2013 06:32 PM

so, it's not pronation after all
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DpptgXq5j4

typical misconception of confusing internal shoulder rotation with pronation?

SystemicAnomaly 02-28-2013 06:48 PM

Don't agree. Both ISR and forearm pronation are involved.


.

luvforty 02-28-2013 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 7243048)
Don't agree. Both ISR and forearm pronation are involved.


.

I understand... but pronation is just a by-product?

seems many are teaching the wrong thing? such as swing edge up karate style then pronate to square up the racket face..... that's a wrong picture to paint to the students.

Relinquis 02-28-2013 07:33 PM

luvforty,

well.. you've shown us what you think is the wrong way of describing it, what is the right way?

SystemicAnomaly 02-28-2013 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7243052)
I understand... but pronation is just a by-product?

seems many are teaching the wrong thing? such as swing edge up karate style then pronate to square up the racket face..... that's a wrong picture to paint to the students.

A byproduct of what? Supination? Certainly not ISR (alone).

Why do you believe that it is wrong? Seems that would work for many students (but perhaps not all).
.

Mahboob Khan 02-28-2013 08:39 PM

The end result is that the pronation of wrist-forearm (if using continental grip) does occur, and it may occur on many forehands (using Eastern and semi-western grips).

luvforty 03-01-2013 04:06 AM

SA - lets say we take ISR out of the picture... take a normal serving stance, but instead of having the right elbow in-line with the shoulder line (in which case ISR will help in RHS)..... we stick the right elbow forward, 90 degrees to the shoulder line..... so ISR would hit the ball straight to the left fence, therefore it's will not help on the RHS if we want to serve into the normal target.

now, relying on pronation alone, meaning that you drop the racket to back scratch, swing edge on to chop at the ball, and pronate to square up the face.

how do you generate speed in that scenario? there is not much there. or am I missing something? but this is how a lot of teachers explain the serve - edge on and pronate to hi-five.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InYd8IrFnkU

from the trophy position onwards, seems the racket is just like a door opening and shutting, there is very little to none of that chop and pronate stuff.... in other words, I don't think Fed has 'edge on' in mind at all.... seems to me from trophy to impact, his strings are always facing the ball.

MK - sorry i was talking about the serve, not the FH.

luvforty 03-01-2013 05:17 AM

and Nole is correct about the wrist after all !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0dldQUtRbo

it IS wrist snap, it will happen if ISR happens.

arche3 03-01-2013 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7243547)
SA - lets say we take ISR out of the picture... take a normal serving stance, but instead of having the right elbow in-line with the shoulder line (in which case ISR will help in RHS)..... we stick the right elbow forward, 90 degrees to the shoulder line..... so ISR would hit the ball straight to the left fence, therefore it's will not help on the RHS if we want to serve into the normal target.

now, relying on pronation alone, meaning that you drop the racket to back scratch, swing edge on to chop at the ball, and pronate to square up the face.

how do you generate speed in that scenario? there is not much there. or am I missing something? but this is how a lot of teachers explain the serve - edge on and pronate to hi-five.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InYd8IrFnkU

from the trophy position onwards, seems the racket is just like a door opening and shutting, there is very little to none of that chop and pronate stuff.... in other words, I don't think Fed has 'edge on' in mind at all.... seems to me from trophy to impact, his strings are always facing the ball.

MK - sorry i was talking about the serve, not the FH.

Uh no... from the start of the up of the racket the edge is on? Its slow mo and clearly its on edge as it starts up from trophy. Its not pan cake from trophy lol.

Are you formely know as dozu? :rolleyes:

Moz 03-01-2013 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arche3 (Post 7243672)
Uh no... from the start of the up of the racket the edge is on? Its slow mo and clearly its on edge as it starts up from trophy. Its not pan cake from trophy lol.

Agree, I thought that looked pretty clear from the video.

arche3 03-01-2013 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moz (Post 7243675)
Agree, I thought that looked pretty clear from the video.

Its also like 3000 frames per second john yandel jesus video so how can luv40 possibly not see it?

Chas Tennis 03-01-2013 05:42 AM

Many of the points that you are discussing must show clearly in this high speed video.

High speed video of serve. See also other serves especially those viewed from behind.
https://vimeo.com/27528701

(The best way to do stop-action single-frame on Vimeo is to press the play-pause button as fast as possible. Vimeo does not play on my Samsung Galaxy S2 smartphone.)

1) When the arm is first up, straight and slightly angled to the vertical - before ISR - the racket edge is toward the ball. That's where the angle between the arm and racket is ~90.

2) As ISR occurs over 0.03 sec - indicated by the very rapid rotation of the elbow bones - the racket would go from edge on to face on to the ball mostly by the ISR. The angle of the arm and racket go from ~90 to the angle at impact (the so-called "β"). It is very difficult to observe pronation and distinguish it from ISR when the racket head acceleration is the highest.

3) Some pronation may have been learned by practicing to get the right angle on the racket face. That pronation could have occurred before ISR. Most pronation occurs in the follow through. ( It is even possible that the small pronation muscles are not strong enough to pronate while the ISR is rotationally accelerating the arm. ??)

luvforty 03-01-2013 05:58 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InYd8IrFnkU

trophy is at 00:24 - his strings are facing the right fence.... he can pancake a ball to the right if he didn't turn his body to the target.

but he did, therefore he pancaked the ball to the opponent.

luvforty 03-01-2013 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis (Post 7243705)
Many of the points that you are discussing must show clearly in this high speed video.

High speed video of serve. See also other serves especially those viewed from behind.
https://vimeo.com/27528701

that looks like a spin serve, hence more 'edge on'.

but Fed's flat serve looks like a pancake to me....

not in the sense of a beginner pancake with E grip, but in the sense that from trophy if he doesn't turn his body at all, he can pancake a ball straight into the right fence.

Chas Tennis 03-01-2013 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7243754)
that looks like a spin serve, hence more 'edge on'.

but Fed's flat serve looks like a pancake to me....

not in the sense of a beginner pancake with E grip, but in the sense that from trophy if he doesn't turn his body at all, he can pancake a ball straight into the right fence.

All pro serves get most of their racket head speed from ISR. ISR, with a straight arm and the racket at an angle to the arm, causes the face of the racket to turn, change angle.

"but Fed's flat serve looks like a pancake to me...." Could you find a high speed video that clearly shows what you mean.

arche3 03-01-2013 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7243744)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InYd8IrFnkU

trophy is at 00:24 - his strings are facing the right fence.... he can pancake a ball to the right if he didn't turn his body to the target.

but he did, therefore he pancaked the ball to the opponent.

Just stop.... your killing me.

luvforty 03-01-2013 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis (Post 7243826)
All pro serves get most of their racket head speed from ISR. ISR with a straight arm and the racket at an angle causes the face of the racket to turn, change angle.

"but Fed's flat serve looks like a pancake to me...." Could you find a high speed video that clearly shows what you mean.

right, the face does turn, but it's always SQUARE to the path of the racket head (in the Fed's flat serve), as opposed to your vimeo spin serve where the the face is more in-line with the path, aka on-edge.

just use the Fed video, imagine if he didn't jump, he didn't turn to the target, he only does a shadow swing with the ESR then the ISR, at what point is racket on edge?

looks to me he would pancake that ball to the right fence (or fans in his case lol)... I don't see at any point he'd chop on-edge at the ball.

luvforty 03-01-2013 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arche3 (Post 7243835)
Just stop.... your killing me.

what? explain.

arche3 03-01-2013 06:37 AM

and if he serves to the back bleachers it would be a reverse pan cake. BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT! ahh... you serve to the other side of the net. I am getting a migrane. need to stop reading dozus' trolling.... must stop.

arche3 03-01-2013 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7243850)
what? explain.

stop playing tenis. no seriously. just stop. take up ping pong. its exactly like tennis. really. and you do it inside. there is a www.talkpingpong.com too.


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