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-   -   slice serve - pronate or no pronate? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=456513)

luvforty 03-03-2013 07:24 PM

slice serve - pronate or no pronate?
 
pros and cons?

preference?

Fuji 03-03-2013 07:58 PM

I pronate on all my serves, regardless of what spin I'm hitting.

Why wouldn't you pronate?

-Fuji

luvforty 03-03-2013 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuji (Post 7249498)
I pronate on all my serves, regardless of what spin I'm hitting.

Why wouldn't you pronate?

-Fuji

feels like there is better directional control with the no-pronate chop version.

Fuji 03-03-2013 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7249507)
feels like there is better directional control with the no-pronate chop version.

How so? With a slice you're just "carving" the out side of the ball. I don't think pronation is something you do consciously, it just happens with a smooth motion to my knowledge at least.

-Fuji

TheCheese 03-03-2013 10:35 PM

I just pronate less, but I still pronate.

boramiNYC 03-03-2013 10:47 PM

you want to use full pronation for any serve to maintain consistent high racquet head speed. the swingpath and the racquet head control around the contact point can be varied for control (amount and direction of spin and through component).

what people often don't realize is that the variation at the contact that results in wide or T serves is smaller than usually perceived. The full variation can be achieved by racquet control within the pronation.

Chas Tennis 03-04-2013 12:19 AM

https://vimeo.com/27528347

This is a slice serve as indicated by:
1) the racket motion- mostly across the back of the ball
2) the label of the ball can be seen spinning in mostly a horizontal direction. (better seen in my copy than on Vimeo)
3) the ball has the characteristic slice trajectory curve and bounce for a right handed server.

The rapid internal shoulder rotation can be seen by looking at the rotation (axial) of the bones of the elbow.

I'm not able to see pronation before impact in this high speed video. However, I'm sure some pronation occurs on all serves before impact, possibly completed prior to the ISR. The server has a watch on; it's useful as a marker for total arm rotation at the wrist. When the arm is straight the total arm rotation is -

Total Arm Rotation Rate (at wrist) = ISR + Pronation.

If the rotation rate at the wrist is different than the ISR rate then that is pronation (or supination). In my opinion, the total rotation rate leading to impact might be due just to ISR. Needs better high speed videos with markers to measure.

I'm sure you can slice serve by carving on the outside of the ball, as Fuji describes, but this video is more of a rapid brush across the ball, exact angle not clear.

(The best stop-action single-frame can be done on Vimeo by pressing the play-pause button as fast as possible. I can't view Vimeo videos on my Samsung Galaxy S2 smartphone.)

boramiNYC 03-04-2013 12:40 AM

^^^in that vid I can clearly see pronation. at trophy the hand is neutral but the upward thrust of the shoulder leads supination of the hand and rapid pronation through contact. Of course ESR/ISR is present as well.

typically 'pronation' in serve indicate not the pronated position of the hand but rotation of the hand toward the pronated hand position from neutral or supinated position.

Chas Tennis 03-04-2013 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boramiNYC (Post 7249742)
^^^in that vid I can clearly see pronation. at trophy the hand is neutral but the upward thrust of the shoulder leads supination of the hand and rapid pronation through contact. Of course ESR/ISR is present as well.

typically 'pronation' in serve indicate not the pronated position of the hand but rotation of the hand toward the pronated hand position from neutral or supinated position.

I'm sure pronation and supination occur early in the service motion, at trophy position, etc. but have not looked much at that.

Where does the final racket head speed come from?

After the arm is straight and the racket has very little racket head speed toward the ball, in other words, when the racket head acceleration is about to start, I can clearly see forceful ISR (humerus rotation) but I cannot observe pronation (forearm only rotation) because it is too difficult or small to see.

boramiNYC 03-04-2013 01:16 AM

the amount of rotation at wrist is greater than that at the elbow, which indicates presence of pronation.

Chas Tennis 03-04-2013 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boramiNYC (Post 7249767)
the amount of rotation at wrist is greater than that at the elbow, which indicates presence of pronation.

From the arm straight to impact that's not clear to me. I don't know.

Raul_SJ 03-04-2013 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis (Post 7249725)


The racquet faces towards the right net post on the follow through, so I believe there is pronation occurring.

When I think of the question posed in this thread "hitting a slice serve without pronation", I take it to mean hitting a slice serve with the racquet face never facing towards the right net post on the follow through (purely carving the ball).

Is that a correct interpretation?

luvforty 03-04-2013 04:25 AM

I should have clarified a little -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...xaM5a80#t=155s

here he talks about the finish of a slice serve, so I guess another way to ask the question is do you finish (when the hand comes down to waist level) with

1) hand facing body? (or more extreme case, facing the ground)

2) hand facing the sky?

Fuji 03-04-2013 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis (Post 7249725)
https://vimeo.com/27528347

This is a slice serve as indicated by:
1) the racket motion- mostly across the back of the ball
2) the label of the ball can be seen spinning in mostly a horizontal direction. (better seen in my copy than on Vimeo)
3) the ball has the characteristic slice trajectory curve and bounce for a right handed server.

The rapid internal shoulder rotation can be seen by looking at the rotation (axial) of the bones of the elbow.

I'm not able to see pronation before impact in this high speed video. However, I'm sure some pronation occurs on all serves before impact, possibly completed prior to the ISR. The server has a watch on; it's useful as a marker for total arm rotation at the wrist. When the arm is straight the total arm rotation is -

Total Arm Rotation Rate (at wrist) = ISR + Pronation.

If the rotation rate at the wrist is different than the ISR rate then that is pronation (or supination). In my opinion, the total rotation rate leading to impact might be due just to ISR. Needs better high speed videos with markers to measure.

I'm sure you can slice serve by carving on the outside of the ball, as Fuji describes, but this video is more of a rapid brush across the ball, exact angle not clear.

(The best stop-action single-frame can be done on Vimeo by pressing the play-pause button as fast as possible. I can't view Vimeo videos on my Samsung Galaxy S2 smartphone.)

Haha, it's hard to describe how in my mind I slice. The way I learned to slice off a serve was something like "peel the apple" by carving/brushing along the side of the ball.

-Fuji

Relinquis 03-04-2013 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7249885)
I should have clarified a little -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...xaM5a80#t=155s

here he talks about the finish of a slice serve, so I guess another way to ask the question is do you finish (when the hand comes down to waist level) with

1) hand facing body? (or more extreme case, facing the ground)

2) hand facing the sky?

In this video that you posted he says that you do pronate on a slice serve, you just don't think about it. It's at 3:55

Here's the link:
http://youtu.be/FVRexaM5a80?t=3m55s

Chas Tennis 03-04-2013 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relinquis (Post 7250114)
In this video that you posted he says that you do pronate on a slice serve, you just don't think about it. It's at 3:55

Here's the link:
http://youtu.be/FVRexaM5a80?t=3m55s

In another reply, I mentioned that if you have a video of a serve and it does not show the ball impact, to forget about that video. This instructional video has the racket head at impact entirely out of the frame, a red flag? Also, you cannot see what is going on unless the video is high speed video, say, about, 240 fps more or less.

Instructional videos on the serve that don't use high speed video and very fast shutter speeds (= outdoors in direct sunlight) are likely to be misleading.

In my opinion, it is very misleading, when he demonstrates statically how the wrist brushes across on the kick serve, regarding joint motions which are very complex around impact. I do not understand it in detail yet, but the arm is rotating around its axis at impact from ISR - unlike in the static demonstration starting at 4:08 - and that will allow the wrist to move more freely through the motion at impact. If you held your arm from rotating on a serve as shown, it might be very stressful to the wrist and otherwise and might risk injury.

Here is a video that I believe is of a kick serve but I'm not sure.
https://vimeo.com/40449544

How can this compound motion at impact be described is a few words related to just one joint like the wrist?

luvforty 03-04-2013 07:41 AM

the more I think about it -

maybe it's not about pronation.... instead it's about how the wrist moves.

the wrist can have extension/flexion or radial/ulnar deviation, or a combination of the 2.

if it has a lot of extension/flexion then you end up with a finish with palm facing yourself or to the ground.

if it is engaged mainly in the deviation action, you end up with palm facing the sky at the finish.

hope it makes sense.

Relinquis 03-04-2013 07:57 AM

thanks chas... i try to keep my arm a loose as possible and allow it to move naturally as much as i can. i feel the less stress i put on my joints the better my serve.

Raul_SJ 03-04-2013 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relinquis (Post 7250114)
In this video that you posted he says that you do pronate on a slice serve, you just don't think about it. It's at 3:55

Here's the link:
http://youtu.be/FVRexaM5a80?t=3m55s

That Jeff Salzenstein video relates to a kick serve... Jeff Salzenstein is demonstrating 2 ways of hitting the kick serve, one with less pronation than the other, but both ways include pronation. It's not possible to hit a kick serve with a continental grip without pronation.

While with a slice serve, it is possible to hit it with a pure karate chop motion, although I have not seen any pros do it that way.

LeeD 03-04-2013 01:57 PM

Either way, but the more advanced is with some pronation. You do not need pronation to hit a basic beginner kick or twist serve, just chop away up and out.


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