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Flash O'Groove 03-05-2013 01:59 AM

Discussing the second tier
 
The discussion on the top 10 of all time was very interesting. It was an incentive to discover players I didn't know well at all. I would like to compare the other past great who don't qualify, for a lot of posters, for the top 10.

Here is a an arbitrary list of some players which I want to discuss, with their main achievement. It include only open era great, because I don't know well enough the second tier of the pro era. So if old-timer want to discuss other past great they are welcome.

1. Boris Becker. He won 49 overall single titles, including 6 slams and 3 year end championship, reached 4 slam finals and 5 YEC finals.

2. Edberg. He won 42 titles, including 6 slams (5 finals), and 1 YEC (1 final). He was n°1 for 72 weeks.

2. Wilanders. He won 33 titles, including 7 slams, and reached 4 finals. He won three slams in 1988.

I rank Wilanders and Edberg behind Becker because the AO field, while it wasn't too weak, lacked the presence of some of the top players in the 80's.

4. Nastase. He won 57 titles, including 2 slams, and reached 3 finals, while playing AO only once, when he was old. He also won 4 YEC and reached 1 finals.

5. Courrier. He won only 23 titles, but this include 4 slams and 3 finals. I think is AO are fully legitimate as most of the top players where present. He reached two YEC finals.

6. Ashe. He won 35 open era titles, including 3 slams and 2 finals. He also won one YEC. His AO is legitimate as mot of the top players where present (except the best two...)

7. Newcombe. He won 31 open era tittles, won 5 slams, including 2 AO in very weak fields. He also reached 2 slams finals, one of them in a very weak AO field, and one YEC.

8. Vilas. He won 62 titles, 4 slams, including two AO with weak fields, and one YEC. He reached 3 RG finals. He should probably be ranked higher, but I don't know precisely.

9. Smith, who won 54 open era titles, including 1 USO and 1 Wimby, and to YEC.

9. Kuerten, who won only 20 titles, including three RG and 1 WTF, in a very short career.

9. Hewitt, who won 28 titles, including two slams, 2 YEC, and who reached also 2 slams finals.

9. Kodes, who won 3 slams, including a boycotted wimby with the weakest field ever. He reached two USO finals.

What do you think of this ranking. It only take into account the result and the bigger tournament, but not the consistency to reach a lot of SF, the H2H, the winning percentage, etc. I wish to provide a base for the discussion with it.

Note: I used YEC to design the elite championship at the end of a season. It is a gross simplification but I'm not familiar enough with the different kind of tournaments.

Nadal_Power 03-05-2013 02:33 AM

Lleyton must be ahead of Guga, no doubt. Rest is fine

kiki 03-05-2013 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash O'Groove (Post 7251752)
The discussion on the top 10 of all time was very interesting. It was an incentive to discover players I didn't know well at all. I would like to compare the other past great who don't qualify, for a lot of posters, for the top 10.

Here is a an arbitrary list of some players which I want to discuss, with their main achievement. It include only open era great, because I don't know well enough the second tier of the pro era. So if old-timer want to discuss other past great they are welcome.

1. Boris Becker. He won 49 overall single titles, including 6 slams and 3 year end championship, reached 4 slam finals and 5 YEC finals.

2. Edberg. He won 42 titles, including 6 slams (5 finals), and 1 YEC (1 final). He was n°1 for 72 weeks.

2. Wilanders. He won 33 titles, including 7 slams, and reached 4 finals. He won three slams in 1988.

I rank Wilanders and Edberg behind Becker because the AO field, while it wasn't too weak, lacked the presence of some of the top players in the 80's.

4. Nastase. He won 57 titles, including 2 slams, and reached 3 finals, while playing AO only once, when he was old. He also won 4 YEC and reached 1 finals.

5. Courrier. He won only 23 titles, but this include 4 slams and 3 finals. I think is AO are fully legitimate as most of the top players where present. He reached two YEC finals.

6. Ashe. He won 35 open era titles, including 3 slams and 2 finals. He also won one YEC. His AO is legitimate as mot of the top players where present (except the best two...)

7. Newcombe. He won 31 open era tittles, won 5 slams, including 2 AO in very weak fields. He also reached 2 slams finals, one of them in a very weak AO field.

8. Vilas. He won 62 titles, 4 slams, including two AO with weak fields, and one YEC. He reached 3 RG finals. He should probably be ranked higher, but I don't know precisely.

9. Smith, who won 54 open era titles, including 1 USO and 1 Wimby.

9. Kuerten, who won only 20 titles, including three RG and 1 WTF, in a very short career.

9. Hewitt, who won 28 titles, including two slams, 2 YEC, and who reached also 2 slams finals.

9. Kodes, who won 3 slams, including a boycotted wimby with the weakest field ever. He reached two USO finals.

What do you think of this ranking. It only take into account the result and the bigger tournament, but not the consistency to reach a lot of SF, the H2H, the winning percentage, etc. I wish to provide a base for the discussion with it.

Your list is pretty good but Djokovic is second tier and never top tier, so is Agassi
WCT was a major so add one more title to Newk and Boris as well as two to
Smith who won Masters and also WCT
In fact your Ashe YEC is a WCT title
I think you listed the right ones
Please since I suposse you ranked them in top tier, consider Mac won 5 Wct and 3 Masters, Lendl 5 Masters and 2 Wct, Borg won 2 Masters and 1 WCt - not counting lost finals at both- Connors has 2 Dallas crowns and 1 Masters and Rosewall has two Dallas beating
Laver in both finals to go along 4 opem era slams

Xavier G 03-05-2013 04:00 AM

It's not a bad list at all, you got a starting base for discussion alright.

Becker, Edberg and Wilander are pretty close in their major career achievements overall, some people may have them in different orders. I would probably give Boris the edge out of the three of them as well.
Nastase won a lot of titles in 72 and 73 in particular, should have won more Slam tournaments considering he did so well at the Masters. 4 Masters, 3 in a row. That was Ilie though. No.4 not bad for Ilie.
I would probably have Newcombe ahead of Courier and Ashe. Newcombe and Ashe both won the WCT Dallas crown in the mid-70's in very strong fields. They both beat Jimbo in GS finals in 1975.
Vilas might be higher, but yes, his AO wins were won in years when many of the very best players didn't go to Australia. Vilas never beat Borg in a Grand Slam event, but did win a good Masters in Oz.
Smith and then either Hewitt or Kodes.

That's my first impressions, will revisit the thread for further thoughts and may change things as I hear other opinions.

Flash O'Groove 03-05-2013 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki (Post 7251821)
Your list is pretty good but Djokovic is second tier and never top tier, so is Agassi
WCT was a major so add one more title to Newk and Boris as well as two to
Smith who won Masters and also WCT
In fact your Ashe YEC is a WCT title
I think you listed the right ones
Please since I suposse you ranked them in top tier, consider Mac won 5 Wct and 3 Masters, Lendl 5 Masters and 2 Wct, Borg won 2 Masters and 1 WCt - not counting lost finals at both- Connors has 2 Dallas crowns and 1 Masters and Rosewall has two Dallas beating
Laver in both finals to go along 4 opem era slams

I left Djokovic out as he has a lot of achievement in front of him. Beside I know enough about him. Agassi and McEnroe are in the top 10 of some people (often at the bottom end of it), so I left them out too. I think they would be a the top of the list if they were included.

I'm not very familiar with the WCT, WTF, Masters, etc., so I used YEC as a generic terms to design these tournaments. Thank you for the informations concerning the Masters, WCT and Dallas. I did considered that these players are usually ranked in the top tier.

Flash O'Groove 03-05-2013 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xavier G (Post 7251831)
It's not a bad list at all, you got a starting base for discussion alright.

Becker, Edberg and Wilander are pretty close in their major career achievements overall, some people may have them in different orders. I would probably give Boris the edge out of the three of them as well.
Nastase won a lot of titles in 72 and 73 in particular, should have won more Slam tournaments considering he did so well at the Masters. 4 Masters, 3 in a row. That was Ilie though. No.4 not bad for Ilie.
I would probably have Newcombe ahead of Courier and Ashe. Newcombe and Ashe both won the WCT Dallas crown in the mid-70's in very strong fields. They both beat Jimbo in GS finals in 1975.
Vilas might be higher, but yes, his AO wins were won in years when many of the very best players didn't go to Australia. Vilas never beat Borg in a Grand Slam event, but did win a good Masters in Oz.
Smith and then either Hewitt or Kodes.

That's my first impressions, will revisit the thread for further thoughts and may change things as I hear other opinions.

Thanks for these views. I gave Newcombe a penalty because the AO field were very weak since 1972, with none of the top europeans or americans showing. This leave him with less slams and less finals appearance. Obviously he is penalized as I didn't consider his results in the amateur tour.

forzamilan90 03-05-2013 04:30 AM

Hoad is missing from this list

jean pierre 03-05-2013 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash O'Groove (Post 7251752)
The discussion on the top 10 of all time was very interesting. It was an incentive to discover players I didn't know well at all. I would like to compare the other past great who don't qualify, for a lot of posters, for the top 10.

Here is a an arbitrary list of some players which I want to discuss, with their main achievement. It include only open era great, because I don't know well enough the second tier of the pro era. So if old-timer want to discuss other past great they are welcome.

1. Boris Becker. He won 49 overall single titles, including 6 slams and 3 year end championship, reached 4 slam finals and 5 YEC finals.

2. Edberg. He won 42 titles, including 6 slams (5 finals), and 1 YEC (1 final). He was n°1 for 72 weeks.

2. Wilanders. He won 33 titles, including 7 slams, and reached 4 finals. He won three slams in 1988.

I rank Wilanders and Edberg behind Becker because the AO field, while it wasn't too weak, lacked the presence of some of the top players in the 80's.

4. Nastase. He won 57 titles, including 2 slams, and reached 3 finals, while playing AO only once, when he was old. He also won 4 YEC and reached 1 finals.

5. Courrier. He won only 23 titles, but this include 4 slams and 3 finals. I think is AO are fully legitimate as most of the top players where present. He reached two YEC finals.

6. Ashe. He won 35 open era titles, including 3 slams and 2 finals. He also won one YEC. His AO is legitimate as mot of the top players where present (except the best two...)

7. Newcombe. He won 31 open era tittles, won 5 slams, including 2 AO in very weak fields. He also reached 2 slams finals, one of them in a very weak AO field, and one YEC.

8. Vilas. He won 62 titles, 4 slams, including two AO with weak fields, and one YEC. He reached 3 RG finals. He should probably be ranked higher, but I don't know precisely.

9. Smith, who won 54 open era titles, including 1 USO and 1 Wimby, and to YEC.

9. Kuerten, who won only 20 titles, including three RG and 1 WTF, in a very short career.

9. Hewitt, who won 28 titles, including two slams, 2 YEC, and who reached also 2 slams finals.

9. Kodes, who won 3 slams, including a boycotted wimby with the weakest field ever. He reached two USO finals.

What do you think of this ranking. It only take into account the result and the bigger tournament, but not the consistency to reach a lot of SF, the H2H, the winning percentage, etc. I wish to provide a base for the discussion with it.

Note: I used YEC to design the elite championship at the end of a season. It is a gross simplification but I'm not familiar enough with the different kind of tournaments.

Vilas is much better than Nastase, Ashe and even Courier.

BobbyOne 03-05-2013 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki (Post 7251821)
Your list is pretty good but Djokovic is second tier and never top tier, so is Agassi
WCT was a major so add one more title to Newk and Boris as well as two to
Smith who won Masters and also WCT
In fact your Ashe YEC is a WCT title
I think you listed the right ones
Please since I suposse you ranked them in top tier, consider Mac won 5 Wct and 3 Masters, Lendl 5 Masters and 2 Wct, Borg won 2 Masters and 1 WCt - not counting lost finals at both- Connors has 2 Dallas crowns and 1 Masters and Rosewall has two Dallas beating
Laver in both finals to go along 4 opem era slams

kiki, I guess Djokovic will be tier 1 at the end of his career. Do you agree?

abmk 03-05-2013 08:22 AM

IMO, top 10

djokovic
becker
edberg
wilander
newk

courier
nastase
ashe
hewitt
kuerten

and why is kodes in that list ?

safin, rafter, stich, krajicek, roddick etc. who aren't mentioned are quite clearly better than him ......

kiki 03-05-2013 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash O'Groove (Post 7251869)
Thanks for these views. I gave Newcombe a penalty because the AO field were very weak since 1972, with none of the top europeans or americans showing. This leave him with less slams and less finals appearance. Obviously he is penalized as I didn't consider his results in the amateur tour.

The toughest indoor event of the 1970 was 74 WCT finals with this field
Borg, Newcombe, Kodes, Nastase, Okker,Laver,Smith and Ashe
Newk won it

Flash O'Groove 03-05-2013 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abmk (Post 7252276)
IMO, top 10

djokovic
becker
edberg
wilander
newk

courier
nastase
ashe
hewitt
kuerten

and why is kodes in that list ?

safin, rafter, stich, krajicek, roddick etc. who aren't mentioned are quite clearly better than him ......

Djokovic has some good chance to enter the top 10 in a short time so I didn't include him.

Why do you consider Newcombe so high? I admit that even if he substract his two AO he has still more majors than Nastase, but Nastase reached also 3 finals and won 4 YEC!

Similarily, Courrier has 4 fully legitimitate slam win, and 3 finals. His only downside is that he won very few overall titles.

You removed Smith form the list, who has two full slam and 54 overall titles. Nearly twice as many as Hewitt.

For Kodes, even if you substract his Wimbledon 73, he still has two slams and two slam finals. That's far better than what Stich or Krajiceck have. I agree that Safin, Rafter and Roddick could be in the discussion.

Forzamilan, I know Hoad should be here somewhere, but it is very difficult to class him in this list, with seven pro slam runner-up result, and one win at the tournament of champion. I have no idea what was his format.

Other old pro that could be included are Segman, Gimeno and Segura.

abmk 03-05-2013 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash O'Groove (Post 7252358)
Why do you consider Newcombe so high? I admit that even if he substract his two AO he has still more majors than Nastase, but Nastase reached also 3 finals and won 4 YEC!

newk also won the WCT in 1974 ( was considered to be the best player in the first half of that year )

his record in the majors is simply much superior to nastase's ... though nastase's YEC record does compensate for that gap to an extent ....

newk was just more consistent & much less flaky than nastase


Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash O'Groove (Post 7252358)
Similarily, Courrier has 4 fully legitimitate slam win, and 3 finals. His only downside is that he won very few overall titles.

newk won 3 full majors, 2 in amateurs & 2 at the AO, while the field in 75 AO wasn't good at all, atleast he had that legendary face-off vs connors there in the final ...

he was at the top for quite a bit longer than courier ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash O'Groove (Post 7252358)
You removed Smith form the list, who has two full slam and 54 overall titles. Nearly twice as many as Hewitt.

hewitt has 2 years ending at no1 and two YECs as well ...

where did you get 54 overall titles for smith ? going by the records, he has 36 after 1968 ...

one thing to remember is there were lots of "mickey mouse" tournaments that time ...that "inflates" the title count of players in comparison to the modern players

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash O'Groove (Post 7252358)
For Kodes, even if you substract his Wimbledon 73, he still has two slams and two slam finals. That's far better than what Stich or Krajiceck have. I agree that Safin, Rafter and Roddick could be in the discussion.

his 2 USO finals were very good ... but 70 RG was again a very depleted one ...71 RG as well to a lesser extent ....(Rome 71 had a deeper field that year ) ... his overall no of titles = 8 .....

both stich and krajicek have clearly more than that ....

they won their slams in very impressive fashion ...

stich beating edberg and becker back to back ...

krajicek beating stich and sampras back to back ...

stich also won the YEC in 93 beating sampras in the finals ...

in full fields, the chances of stich and krajicek winning slams is more than that of Kodes IMO ..

kodes was owned by - laver, rosewall, borg, connors, newk, nastase ...he has respectable records vs ashe/smith that's it ..

krajicek OTOH had respectable records vs almost everyone ... he lead 6-2 in h2h vs sampras at one stage ...

stich did make 2 other major finals as well - USO 94 and RG 96

kiki 03-05-2013 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne (Post 7252230)
kiki, I guess Djokovic will be tier 1 at the end of his career. Do you agree?

Maybe it also depends when you start counting

BobbyOne 03-05-2013 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash O'Groove (Post 7252358)
Djokovic has some good chance to enter the top 10 in a short time so I didn't include him.

Why do you consider Newcombe so high? I admit that even if he substract his two AO he has still more majors than Nastase, but Nastase reached also 3 finals and won 4 YEC!

Similarily, Courrier has 4 fully legitimitate slam win, and 3 finals. His only downside is that he won very few overall titles.

You removed Smith form the list, who has two full slam and 54 overall titles. Nearly twice as many as Hewitt.

For Kodes, even if you substract his Wimbledon 73, he still has two slams and two slam finals. That's far better than what Stich or Krajiceck have. I agree that Safin, Rafter and Roddick could be in the discussion.

Forzamilan, I know Hoad should be here somewhere, but it is very difficult to class him in this list, with seven pro slam runner-up result, and one win at the tournament of champion. I have no idea what was his format.

Other old pro that could be included are Segman, Gimeno and Segura.

Flash, Hoad also won 4 Grand Slam tournaments.

Of course there would be some other players in tier 2 like Kozeluh, Nüsslein, Drobny, Roche.

kiki 03-05-2013 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne (Post 7252444)
Flash, Hoad also won 4 Grand Slam tournaments.

Of course there would be some other players in tier 2 like Kozeluh, Nüsslein, Drobny, Roche.

I think the thread is about open era only.Hoad is an all time great but did little since 68 on...

kiki 03-05-2013 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash O'Groove (Post 7251855)
I left Djokovic out as he has a lot of achievement in front of him. Beside I know enough about him. Agassi and McEnroe are in the top 10 of some people (often at the bottom end of it), so I left them out too. I think they would be a the top of the list if they were included.

I'm not very familiar with the WCT, WTF, Masters, etc., so I used YEC as a generic terms to design these tournaments. Thank you for the informations concerning the Masters, WCT and Dallas. I did considered that these players are usually ranked in the top tier.

Mate, WCT and Dallas is the same here.Dallas was the venue of the WCT championship which was a tour ran from 1971 to 1989.Merged with Gran Prix four years ( 78 to 81) then broke up again until dissapearing in 89.

forzamilan90 03-05-2013 02:37 PM

yeah if this is open era only, might be a good idea to edit the OP and state that clearly so we know which to go by

BobbyOne 03-05-2013 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash O'Groove (Post 7251752)
The discussion on the top 10 of all time was very interesting. It was an incentive to discover players I didn't know well at all. I would like to compare the other past great who don't qualify, for a lot of posters, for the top 10.

Here is a an arbitrary list of some players which I want to discuss, with their main achievement. It include only open era great, because I don't know well enough the second tier of the pro era. So if old-timer want to discuss other past great they are welcome.

1. Boris Becker. He won 49 overall single titles, including 6 slams and 3 year end championship, reached 4 slam finals and 5 YEC finals.

2. Edberg. He won 42 titles, including 6 slams (5 finals), and 1 YEC (1 final). He was n°1 for 72 weeks.

2. Wilanders. He won 33 titles, including 7 slams, and reached 4 finals. He won three slams in 1988.

I rank Wilanders and Edberg behind Becker because the AO field, while it wasn't too weak, lacked the presence of some of the top players in the 80's.

4. Nastase. He won 57 titles, including 2 slams, and reached 3 finals, while playing AO only once, when he was old. He also won 4 YEC and reached 1 finals.

5. Courrier. He won only 23 titles, but this include 4 slams and 3 finals. I think is AO are fully legitimate as most of the top players where present. He reached two YEC finals.

6. Ashe. He won 35 open era titles, including 3 slams and 2 finals. He also won one YEC. His AO is legitimate as mot of the top players where present (except the best two...)

7. Newcombe. He won 31 open era tittles, won 5 slams, including 2 AO in very weak fields. He also reached 2 slams finals, one of them in a very weak AO field, and one YEC.

8. Vilas. He won 62 titles, 4 slams, including two AO with weak fields, and one YEC. He reached 3 RG finals. He should probably be ranked higher, but I don't know precisely.

9. Smith, who won 54 open era titles, including 1 USO and 1 Wimby, and to YEC.

9. Kuerten, who won only 20 titles, including three RG and 1 WTF, in a very short career.

9. Hewitt, who won 28 titles, including two slams, 2 YEC, and who reached also 2 slams finals.

9. Kodes, who won 3 slams, including a boycotted wimby with the weakest field ever. He reached two USO finals.

What do you think of this ranking. It only take into account the result and the bigger tournament, but not the consistency to reach a lot of SF, the H2H, the winning percentage, etc. I wish to provide a base for the discussion with it.

Note: I used YEC to design the elite championship at the end of a season. It is a gross simplification but I'm not familiar enough with the different kind of tournaments.

Flash, I can give you additional information about two players: According to "Winners" (Michel Sutter) Ashe has won 71 titles and Newcombe has won 68 ones.

kiki 03-05-2013 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abmk (Post 7252276)
IMO, top 10

djokovic
becker
edberg
wilander
newk

courier
nastase
ashe
hewitt
kuerten

and why is kodes in that list ?

safin, rafter, stich, krajicek, roddick etc. who aren't mentioned are quite clearly better than him ......

Hewitt¡¡¡¡ good joke.Great and extremely match against that argentinian with such a long name...Roddick got 1/3 of Kodes majors, right? yes¡¡ memory is still working...


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