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-   -   Peak Play GOATS (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=457704)

hoodjem 03-15-2013 06:06 AM

Peak Play GOATS
 
Okay. Here is the place to post your peak-play GOATs list.

As the title implies, this is about the individual's level of play on their very best day at the peak of their career. To put it in modern vernacular, when this person was "in the zone" for one whole match and everything was going this person's way. Everything clicked.

Cumulative achievements do not matter; longevity does not count; years at no. 1 are not relevant.

1. Hoad
2. Gonzales
3. Laver
4. Federer
5. Vines
6. Kovacs
7. Sampras
8. Tilden
9. Borg
10. Budge

(I have not thought in these terms before, but here's my "first-thoughts" list.)

Dan Lobb 03-15-2013 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem (Post 7276631)
Okay. Here is the place to post your peak-play GOATs list.

As the title implies, this is about the individual's level of play on their very best day at the peak of their career. To put it in modern vernacular, when this person was "in the zone" for one whole match.

Cumulative achievements do not matter; longevity does not count.

1. Hoad
2. Gonzales
3. Laver
4. Federer
5. Vines
6. Sampras
7. Tilden
8. Borg
9. Budge
10. Wilding

I have not thought in these terms before, but here's my first thoughts list.)

Good question.

How about:

1) Hoad
2) Gonzales
3) Budge
4) Vines
5) Laver
6) Federer
7) Sedgman
8) Sampras
9) Borg
10) McEnroe

hoodjem 03-15-2013 06:17 AM

^^^Good list. (I don't know a whole lot about Sedgman's level of play.)

(Fix that no. 8, you cool dude 8).)

Benhur 03-15-2013 06:35 AM

It seems to me the concept of peak play requires a defined period in which to frame it. It could be a number of years, one year, 6 months, a tournament, or even one single match. But without some temporal frame the notion becomes diffuse.

hoodjem 03-15-2013 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benhur (Post 7276707)
It seems to me the concept of peak play requires a defined period in which to frame it. It could be a number of years, one year, 6 months, a tournament, or even one single match. But without some temporal frame the notion becomes diffuse.

Good point.

Temporal time-frame: one single match on one day.

robow7 03-15-2013 07:16 AM

In 1984, McEnroe recorded the best single season win-loss record in the Open Era at 96.47% (82/3). I'm guessing there had to be more than a day or two that year where he was invincible

hoodjem 03-15-2013 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robow7 (Post 7276812)
In 1984, McEnroe recorded the best single season win-loss record in the Open Era at 96.47% (82/3). I'm guessing there had to be more than a day or two that year where he was invincible

Maybe so. That was a great year--maybe the greatest of the open era.

You are welcome to formulate your own list based on your own beliefs and opinions.

Feather 03-15-2013 07:33 AM

This is the perfect topic for Federer haters like BobbyOne. All based on subjectivity and without any credibility.

Waiting for the esteemed opinions of the historians

jimbo333 03-15-2013 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem (Post 7276631)
Okay. Here is the place to post your peak-play GOATs list.

As the title implies, this is about the individual's level of play on their very best day at the peak of their career. To put it in modern vernacular, when this person was "in the zone" for one whole match and everything was going this person's way. Everything clicked.

Cumulative achievements do not matter; longevity does not count; years at no. 1 are not relevant.

1. Hoad
2. Gonzales
3. Laver
4. Federer
5. Vines
6. Sampras
7. Tilden
8. Borg
9. Budge
10. Kramer

(I have not thought in these terms before, but here's my "first-thoughts" list.)

I'm sorry but are you seriously going to have a discussion trying to compare the peak play of Sampras and Vines for example? How are you going to do this then?

It is difficult enough to compare say Nadal with Lendl. The game has changed so much that trying to compare players objectively going back before the Open era is just not possible in my opinion!

corners 03-15-2013 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem (Post 7276631)
Okay. Here is the place to post your peak-play GOATs list.

As the title implies, this is about the individual's level of play on their very best day at the peak of their career. To put it in modern vernacular, when this person was "in the zone" for one whole match and everything was going this person's way. Everything clicked.

Cumulative achievements do not matter; longevity does not count; years at no. 1 are not relevant.

1. Hoad
2. Gonzales
3. Laver
4. Federer
5. Vines
6. Sampras
7. Tilden
8. Borg
9. Budge
10. Kramer

(I have not thought in these terms before, but here's my "first-thoughts" list.)

I wasn't aware that there is video of any entire matches played by Hoad, Gonzalez, Vines, Tilden, Budge or Kramer. Could you please suggest where I could find these incredible matches?

hoodjem 03-15-2013 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corners (Post 7276911)
I wasn't aware that there is video of any entire matches played by Hoad, Gonzalez, Vines, Tilden, Budge or Kramer. Could you please suggest where I could find these incredible matches?

Sorry, I cannot help you. I don't think that video had been invented then.

Some filmed excerpts do exist.

corners 03-15-2013 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem (Post 7276915)
Sorry, I cannot help you. I don't think that video had been invented then.

Some filmed excerpts do exist.

Yeah, I just can't see how discussions of this kind are even close to well-informed enough to draw any conclusions. I've seen a grand total of maybe 25 minutes of Hoad, Pancho, Vines, Tilden and Budge in match play. That isn't enough information to make comparisons of this sort, IMHO. How can I possibly compare peak level of play from the finest matches Hoad played to Federer or Sampras' finest performances if I've never seen a single Hoad match in it's entirety, let alone his best matches?

NatF 03-15-2013 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem (Post 7276915)
Sorry, I cannot help you. I don't think that video had been invented then.

Some filmed excerpts do exist.

Do you know of any excerpts that demonstrate their high level of play? I saw one of Rosewall and Tony Roche in the 1970 US Open final recently. Speed wise I was quite impressed, I imagine it was much harder to time shots with those raquets and they were still hitting good shots. They were still incredible athletes back then. Obviously though when just watching highlights you don't really get the full picture.

Not sure how to rate this, are you rating their peak play compared to their contemporaries? Or do you think Hoad with his wooden raquet could beat Federer? Or are you trying to adjust for equipment changes? Etc...not criticising just curious.

I think Federer is the best of the modern era though. Hoad is generally considered the best of the pre open era on peak play alone. So I'd probably have number 1 and 2 being those guys. Federer in front because I actually have experience of watching him...

TMF 03-15-2013 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feather (Post 7276844)
This is the perfect topic for Federer haters like BobbyOne. All based on subjectivity and without any credibility.

Waiting for the esteemed opinions of the historians

It would be a shock if Bobby and kiki to have Roger in the top 10.

NatF 03-15-2013 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMF (Post 7277156)
It would be a shock if Bobby and kiki to have Roger in the top 10.

Probably bottom of the top 10.

Benhur 03-15-2013 10:05 AM

Ok. I can only talk of what I have seen that stuck in my mind as a great level of play. In the grand scheme of tennis things, what I have seen is squat, but I'll tell you anyway what impressed me the most.
In chronological order. Level refers to the winner, though in some cases the loser was not far behind. Some matches are blowouts, but the loser is not to blame.
----------------------------

I remember some footage of a Laver-Roche AO semifinal in 1969. Impressive play by Laver.

Borg at his first Wimbledon final against McEnroe in 1980.

Connors at Wimbledon 1982 against McEnroe.

McEnroe against Connors in 1984 at Wimbledon.

McEnroe at the USO against Connors that year.

Cash against Lendl at Wimbledon 1987.

Lendl at the Masterís final against Wilander in 1987.

Nadal against Coria in Rome 2005

Federer against Gaudio at the WTF 2005 (double bagle)

Federer against Bjorkman Wimbledon 2006

Federer against Roddick AO in 2007

Federer against Nadal Wimbledon 2007

Nadal against Djokovic at FO 2008

Nadal against Federer Wimbledon 2008

Federer against Andreev at the USO 2008

Nadal against Verdasco AO 2009

Nadal against Djokovic Madrid 2009

Nadal against Djokovic USO 2010

Djokovic against Nadal Miami 2011 (this is the best I've seen Djokovic play, and maybe Nadal as well even though he lost)

BobbyOne 03-15-2013 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem (Post 7276631)
Okay. Here is the place to post your peak-play GOATs list.

As the title implies, this is about the individual's level of play on their very best day at the peak of their career. To put it in modern vernacular, when this person was "in the zone" for one whole match and everything was going this person's way. Everything clicked.

Cumulative achievements do not matter; longevity does not count; years at no. 1 are not relevant.

1. Hoad
2. Gonzales
3. Laver
4. Federer
5. Vines
6. Sampras
7. Tilden
8. Borg
9. Budge
10. Kramer

(I have not thought in these terms before, but here's my "first-thoughts" list.)

hoodjem, Interesting that your top four are identic with Rosewall's list. That confirms my conviction that Rosewall ranked regarding peak play and not regarding achievements.

BobbyOne 03-15-2013 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feather (Post 7276844)
This is the perfect topic for Federer haters like BobbyOne. All based on subjectivity and without any credibility.

Waiting for the esteemed opinions of the historians

Featherer: What has Roger done to me that I should hate him???

BobbyOne 03-15-2013 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatF (Post 7277016)
Do you know of any excerpts that demonstrate their high level of play? I saw one of Rosewall and Tony Roche in the 1970 US Open final recently. Speed wise I was quite impressed, I imagine it was much harder to time shots with those raquets and they were still hitting good shots. They were still incredible athletes back then. Obviously though when just watching highlights you don't really get the full picture.

Not sure how to rate this, are you rating their peak play compared to their contemporaries? Or do you think Hoad with his wooden raquet could beat Federer? Or are you trying to adjust for equipment changes? Etc...not criticising just curious.

I think Federer is the best of the modern era though. Hoad is generally considered the best of the pre open era on peak play alone. So I'd probably have number 1 and 2 being those guys. Federer in front because I actually have experience of watching him...

NatF: A well-balanced post.

BobbyOne 03-15-2013 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benhur (Post 7277228)
Ok. I can only talk of what I have seen that stuck in my mind as a great level of play. In the grand scheme of tennis things, what I have seen is squat, but I'll tell you anyway what impressed me the most.
In chronological order. Level refers to the winner, though in some cases the loser was not far behind. Some matches are blowouts, but the loser is not to blame.
----------------------------

I remember some footage of a Laver-Roche AO semifinal in 1969. Impressive play by Laver.

Borg at his first Wimbledon final against McEnroe in 1980.

Connors at Wimbledon 1982 against McEnroe.

McEnroe against Connors in 1984 at Wimbledon.

McEnroe at the USO against Connors that year.

Cash against Lendl at Wimbledon 1987.

Lendl at the Masterís final against Wilander in 1987.

Nadal against Coria in Rome 2005

Federer against Gaudio at the WTF 2005 (double bagle)

Federer against Bjorkman Wimbledon 2006

Federer against Roddick AO in 2007

Federer against Nadal Wimbledon 2007

Nadal against Djokovic at FO 2008

Nadal against Federer Wimbledon 2008

Federer against Andreev at the USO 2008

Nadal against Verdasco AO 2009

Nadal against Djokovic Madrid 2009

Nadal against Djokovic USO 2010

Djokovic against Nadal Miami 2011 (this is the best I've seen Djokovic play, and maybe Nadal as well even though he lost)

Benhur, I think that Roche was equal with Laver in that 1969 summary: Great shots, especially volleys, from both players...


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