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-   -   How the grip rests in your hand (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=457862)

TheLambsheadrep 03-16-2013 11:00 AM

How the grip rests in your hand
 
Even though I have seen the terms “pistol grip” and “hammer grip” used to describe how the racquet rests in your hand, I’ve been told that not everyone is on the same page with them. I just wanted to host a little talk about the two most popular ways to hold the tennis racquet, as seen below.




First of all, if “pistol” and “hammer” are not official terms for the two most common ways the racquet is held in the hand, then what are? I definitely see where pistol and hammer came from, the only difference really is just the index finger. My knuckles are lined up the same exact way for both grips, I hold the same part of the racquet, the only difference is the index finger.




I naturally hit a “pistol” grip SW forehand, but I recently have been trying to change where I hold the grip - now I'm holding it (at least trying to) further down the racquet so that the pinky is flush or close to flush with the base of the butt cap. I have no problem using the pistol grip at this hand position, but this week I gave the hammer grip a try. It is more than easy to feel the difference. At first, it felt like my pointer finger had been amputated, so the balance of the racquet instantly changed a lot and that effected my timing. I do think that I got used to it a bit after a while, and since I am focusing on increasing the utilization of the SSC in my stroke, I think I felt an increased "looseness" in my wrist on forehands. I imagine it's because the area of how much my hand extends throughout the grip (because of the pointer finger) was decreased (and positioned lower on the grip) which decreased the wrist's and/or hand's ability to get in the way, therefore increasing the angle of how far the racquet would naturally bend back. Has anyone experienced this?

I saw that toly was creating figures of how the pistol grip uses the spread out index finger as leverage, can someone please go into detail on that? How it works, the advantages/disadvantages, etc.

luvforty 03-16-2013 11:10 AM

i use extreme pistol... or a rifle grip.

toly 03-16-2013 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep (Post 7280198)
I saw that toly was creating figures of how the pistol grip uses the spread out index finger as leverage, can someone please go into detail on that? How it works, the advantages/disadvantages, etc.

See also http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...23#post5276723 posts 62, 63.

TheLambsheadrep 03-16-2013 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toly (Post 7280269)

Thanks Toly. I have seen those posts and what I was referring to above were your figures with Roddick (I believe) serving and using a pistol grip. Do you have any different information when it comes to that grip and forehands, or are the physics, characteristics, and outcomes the same? I am mainly trying to find out how the extended index figure changes the stroke.

toly 03-16-2013 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep (Post 7280284)
Thanks Toly. I have seen those posts and what I was referring to above were your figures with Roddick (I believe) serving and using a pistol grip. Do you have any different information when it comes to that grip and forehands, or are the physics, characteristics, and outcomes the same? I am mainly trying to find out how the extended index figure changes the stroke.

There is big difference between Taylor hammer grip and your grip because he keeps his finger knuckles parallel to handle’s axis. That’s why a wrist ulnar deviation cannot reduce pronation beta angle (β) less than 30°.

Let’s talk about hard topspin FH with semiwestern/western grip. Pros apply actively pronation and wrist ulnar deviation. If ulnar deviation reaches the minimum of β and this angle is zero, due to pronation they could have very high probability to frame the ball. Thus, they should keep this angle away from zero. Taylor hammer grip can provide that. It seems that Nadal uses this kind of grip and his hard TS FH is very reliable.

SystemicAnomaly 03-16-2013 02:39 PM

Toly, what is this hummer grip you keep talking about? It sounds kinda dirty/risque.

To to the OP: the differences that you show between the 2 grips is subtle. Most others would have a more significant difference. For most conventional grips, the racket handle would lie diagonally across the palm. With the fingers bunched together, players have the racket handle much closer to perpendicular to the arm and fingers. I am reluctant to refer to this as a hammer grip because way too many sources outside of TT refer to a conventional continental grip (diagonal orientation) as a hammer (or chopper) grip. How about if we refer to the perpendicular orientation as a baseball bat grip or something else?



TheLambsheadrep 03-16-2013 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toly (Post 7280697)
There is big difference between Taylor hummer grip and your grip because he keeps his finger knuckles parallel to handle’s axis. That’s why a wrist ulnar deviation cannot reduce pronation beta angle (β) less than 30°.

Let’s talk about hard topspin FH with semiwestern/western grip. Pros apply actively pronation and wrist ulnar deviation. If ulnar deviation reaches the minimum of β and this angle is zero, due to pronation they could have very high probability to frame the ball. Thus, they should keep this angle away from zero. Taylor hummer grip can provide that. It seems that Nadal uses this kind of grip and his hard TS FH is very reliable.

I see what you're saying with Taylor Dent's serve and the angle at contact that his grip forces him to have (btw, do you mean hummer or hammer?). But does he use the same grip positioning for his forehand (referring to his knuckles being all on the same bevel, not the conti grip)? And you are implying that Nadal DOES do this for his forehand, interesting. When I hold the grip with all my knuckles on the 4th bevel (SW fh), I find my thumb is in an awkward position resting between/on top of my index finger and middle finger. Also, the racquet handle does not fit as comfortably and/or as snug between my thumb and index finger. I am trying to find large size images of Nadal's forehand to see for myself, if you come across any that show it please let me know. You said that a beta angle of 0 degree should be avoided, and you are referring specifically to a forehand at contact? In your statement, is 0 degrees when the long axis of the racquet and player's arm are parallel to the ground? What other pros do you see using this grip positioning?

Costagirl 03-16-2013 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep (Post 7280198)
Even though I have seen the terms “pistol grip” and “hammer grip” used to describe how the racquet rests in your hand, I’ve been told that not everyone is on the same page with them. I just wanted to host a little talk about the two most popular ways to hold the tennis racquet, as seen below.




First of all, if “pistol” and “hammer” are not official terms for the two most common ways the racquet is held in the hand, then what are? I definitely see where pistol and hammer came from, the only difference really is just the index finger. My knuckles are lined up the same exact way for both grips, I hold the same part of the racquet, the only difference is the index finger.




I naturally hit a “pistol” grip SW forehand, but I recently have been trying to change where I hold the grip - now I'm holding it (at least trying to) further down the racquet so that the pinky is flush or close to flush with the base of the butt cap. I have no problem using the pistol grip at this hand position, but this week I gave the hammer grip a try. It is more than easy to feel the difference. At first, it felt like my pointer finger had been amputated, so the balance of the racquet instantly changed a lot and that effected my timing. I do think that I got used to it a bit after a while, and since I am focusing on increasing the utilization of the SSC in my stroke, I think I felt an increased "looseness" in my wrist on forehands. I imagine it's because the area of how much my hand extends throughout the grip (because of the pointer finger) was decreased (and positioned lower on the grip) which decreased the wrist's and/or hand's ability to get in the way, therefore increasing the angle of how far the racquet would naturally bend back. Has anyone experienced this?

I saw that toly was creating figures of how the pistol grip uses the spread out index finger as leverage, can someone please go into detail on that? How it works, the advantages/disadvantages, etc.


As long as your not holding a continental on the forehand grip like many old school players and your hand feels like it's 'home' on the racquet - you're good! Sometimes coaches don't allow players to do what comes natural to them...Eastern.semi-western...and with little success they wind up giving up. And ya can't have that!

TheLambsheadrep 03-16-2013 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 7280847)
To to the OP: the differences that you show between the 2 grips is subtle. Most others would have a more significant difference. For most conventional grips, the racket handle would lie diagonally across the palm. With the fingers bunched together, players have the racket handle much closer to perpendicular to the arm and fingers. I am reluctant to refer to this as a hammer grip because way too many sources outside of TT refer to a conventional continental grip (diagonal orientation) as a hammer (or chopper) grip. How about if we refer to the perpendicular orientation as a baseball bat grip or something else?

While I would still like Toly to answer, it feels much more natural for me to position my knuckles all on the same bevel if I imagine the handle is that of a baseball bat :) . I never have thought to hold a racquet like this, and this is common/how people (and pros) normally hold the racquet when their fingers are all bunched together? Then is the way I'm holding the racquet in the pictures (with bunched fingers + handle diagonal across the palm) like a grip hybrid...? I'm assuming it's uncommon if you're saying "With the fingers bunched together, players have the racket handle much closer to perpendicular to the arm and fingers."

TheLambsheadrep 03-16-2013 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Costagirl (Post 7280917)
As long as your not holding a continental on the forehand grip like many old school players and your hand feels like it's 'home' on the racquet - you're good! Sometimes coaches don't allow players to do what comes natural to them...Eastern.semi-western...and with little success they wind up giving up. And ya can't have that!

True. I'm just trying to see/feel the differences, but during match play I will more than likely keep my index finger extended.

I always enjoy Toly's figures with beta angle and such. I saw what he did on Roddick's serve and index finger (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showp...&postcount=124) and was hoping he could work the same idea but apply it to a forehand.

toly 03-16-2013 07:12 PM

This is good picture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkXBlazer (Post 6352508)
All right. Finally found a picture to exemplify what I'm talking about with the grip..


Second one is much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 6799451)
W1Y5.jpg[/url]

How to hold a hummer:



SystemicAnomaly 03-16-2013 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toly (Post 7281736)
Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkXBlazer (Post 6352508)
All right. Finally found a picture to exemplify what I'm talking about with the grip..

...

Second one is much better.

I would say that the 1st one if preferable for most strokes. Why do you think the 2nd one is?

BevelDevil 03-17-2013 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep (Post 7280941)
While I would still like Toly to answer, it feels much more natural for me to position my knuckles all on the same bevel if I imagine the handle is that of a baseball bat :) . I never have thought to hold a racquet like this, and this is common/how people (and pros) normally hold the racquet when their fingers are all bunched together? Then is the way I'm holding the racquet in the pictures (with bunched fingers + handle diagonal across the palm) like a grip hybrid...? I'm assuming it's uncommon if you're saying "With the fingers bunched together, players have the racket handle much closer to perpendicular to the arm and fingers."

I think the finger, per se, doesn't really matter. It's more of a convenient indicator of handle orientation.




^^^ Nice pic.

Fwiw, I use the 1st on serve, forehand, and fh volley/slice. I use the 2nd for the 1hbh and bh volley/slice.

toly 03-17-2013 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 7282039)
I would say that the 1st one if preferable for most strokes. Why do you think the 2nd one is?

Scheepers slice serve.



It seems she employs pistol grip. Around contact, image 11, her arm and longitudinal racquet axis form straight line. As a result, arm pronation contributes nothing to RHS. I believe this is very bad technique.

This is flat serve.



Wrist ulnar deviation is locked, so the player doesn’t produce side spin.

There is question. How is he able to lock ulnar deviation? Answer – He utilizes hammer grip. His arm and racquet cannot be in straight line position and he can use arm pronation to maximize RHS.

SystemicAnomaly 03-17-2013 02:18 PM

^ I do not seem to have any problem at all producing ulnar/radial deviations with a standard (diagonal) Continental grip. I can't believe that most pros would have a problem with this either.

.

LeeD 03-17-2013 02:25 PM

me..
Forehand, strong SW and pistol.
Backhand topspin, eBackhand and hammer.
Backhand slice, eForehand side of conti and hammer.
Serve, conti and cross betweem pistol and hammer.
Volleys, conti like above, as are overheads.

toly 03-17-2013 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 7283738)
^ I do not seem to have any problem at all producing ulnar/radial deviations with a standard (diagonal) Continental grip. I can't believe that most pros would have a problem with this either.

.

There is no problem with production of ulnar/radial deviations, but rather opposite. Motion dependent torque usually creates that automatically.

The problem is how we can keep beta (β) angle around 45° during dwell time. If you know some better way, explain please.

What is wrong with Scheepers serve? Why cannot she control/restrict wrist ulnar deviation?

corbind 03-18-2013 07:55 AM

Tracking thread

toly 03-18-2013 09:12 AM

IMO the best way to control wrist ulnar deviation is - we have to use our “wrist ulnar deviation muscles” actively to control motion dependent torque which is created by elbow extension. In case of flat serve we can use hammer grip, or hit with bent elbow, or both!!!??? :confused:

TheLambsheadrep 03-18-2013 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toly (Post 7286069)
IMO the best way to control wrist ulnar deviation is - we have to use our “wrist ulnar deviation muscles” actively to control motion dependent torque which is created by elbow extension.

So for the serve you're saying both grips can have/lock wrist ulnar deviation, but the hammer grip does it (more?) naturally? Also, the guy serving has his knuckles lined up on one bevel but his index finger is extended...and you still consider this the hammer grip...so the names of the grips differentiate between whether the knuckles are on one bevel or not, not if the index finger is extended or not?

Here (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showp...&postcount=124) i was confused about a few things - you were talking about the index finger as a fulcrum in a first class lever model despite saying that you cannot fully use a first class lever model since there is no gravity involved. So is figure 1 or 2 a more realistic model of the serve? Which one (more realistic or not) would produce an optimum serve? Can any of that information (on the effects of the extended index finger) be applied to a forehand (or 1H or 2H backhand for that matter)? You also said the index finger is generally extended because it increases torque. So in your opinion, is the hammer grip with an extended index finger the best service grip for serves (compared to the index finger not extended and/or using the continental grip)?



While I am now finding the input on the serve more interesting, I am mainly looking for how those figures can apply to forehands. Specifically, the differences of having an extended index finger and not. Plus, I (as well as SystemicAnomaly) am confused to why you would suggest the hammer grip is optimal for SW forehands (when you said "second one is better" in post 11, were you referring to the grip or the picture of the girl and the hummer? haha). If you meant the grip, can you elaborate why, since when you said "If ulnar deviation reaches the minimum of β and this angle is zero, due to pronation they could have very high probability to frame the ball. Thus, they should keep this angle away from zero," is that 0 degrees with the long axis of the racquet being horizontal or vertical? Were you still talking about the serve when you said this? I ask because if you were talking about the fh and meant vertical, I have never seen that so I don't think it's relevant, but if you meant horizontal, 9 out of 10 pics of pro forehands show they have the racquet horizontal at contact (and the other one is just off by a little bit).


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