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-   -   Self Rating After Long Absence (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=458253)

Cindysphinx 03-20-2013 07:55 AM

Self Rating After Long Absence
 
Simple question: If a player was a 4.5C in 2008 and hasn't payed since, can she self rate as a 4.0?

OrangePower 03-20-2013 08:01 AM

If the player is still in tennislink, showing a 4.5 rating for 2008, then the answer is no. From the self-rating instructions sent to captains this season:

"The minimum [self-rating] offered will be based on your tennis history and if you are a returning player, will not be lower than your last published rating."

Of course, the player can then appeal the self rating.

beernutz 03-20-2013 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 7290536)
Simple question: If a player was a 4.5C in 2008 and hasn't payed since, can she self rate as a 4.0?

She can if she uses a different name.

Cindysphinx 03-20-2013 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beernutz (Post 7290661)
She can if she uses a different name.

Nope, I checked that. She is using the same name, and her record from 2008 and before is there for all to see.

She did play a bunch of tournaments. I wonder if that explains why the computer let her rate at 4.0. Maybe her end-of-season results for 2008 were low enough to get bumped down to 4.0, so that's why the computer didn't bar her from 4.0S?

NumbersGuy 03-20-2013 10:10 AM

She can also appeal the 4.5C 2008 rating, and if she's in the appealable range it will be granted, after which she can self-rate at 4.0. I've noticed several just like this in my Section and that was the NTRP Coordinator's reply. A shame that TennisLink doesn't give more information like this on players' rating histories.

Chelsie1 03-20-2013 10:11 AM

That is perplexing. Seems the computer wouldn't let her rate down if her last rating was 4.5. Could be there is more to it.
Did she appeal? How old is she? Ask the league coordinator. Could be a glitch.

rich s 03-20-2013 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 7290536)
Simple question: If a player was a 4.5C in 2008 and hasn't payed since, can she self rate as a 4.0?

Yes....

I have a guy that was looking to join my men's 4.0 team (for the 2013 season) that was computer rated 4.5 a few years ago (2009ish).... when you look up his current year end rating it was listed as 0.0 because a period of 24 months had elapsed where he didn't play in USTA Leagues.

NumbersGuy 03-20-2013 12:23 PM

That doesn't mean his prior rating isn't still stored in the USTA's computer, just that his rating has expired and he has to self-rate again, at no lower than his last published rating (the 2009ish 4.5). Are you saying he has now successfully self-rated at 4.0 without an appeal? That would be a glitch in the system.

J_R_B 03-20-2013 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rich s (Post 7291285)
Yes....

I have a guy that was looking to join my men's 4.0 team (for the 2013 season) that was computer rated 4.5 a few years ago (2009ish).... when you look up his current year end rating it was listed as 0.0 because a period of 24 months had elapsed where he didn't play in USTA Leagues.

If you look up his rating using the Find a Rating link on the League page, it will say 0.0, but if you go to his player page, it will show his last rating, which should be 4.5. He would have to self-rate at 4.5 and appeal. At least here, there have been several self-rating appeals granted so far this Spring. May vary by section, but it seems like Middle States is more interested in getting people playing than strictly policing artifical standards.

goober 03-20-2013 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 7290873)
Nope, I checked that. She is using the same name, and her record from 2008 and before is there for all to see.

She did play a bunch of tournaments. I wonder if that explains why the computer let her rate at 4.0. Maybe her end-of-season results for 2008 were low enough to get bumped down to 4.0, so that's why the computer didn't bar her from 4.0S?

She could have a 4.0T rating which allowed her to self rate 4.0 instead of 4.5.

For some reason I though they closed that loophole. Before you could get bumped to 4.5, play mix exclusive the next year and get a 4.0M rating which would then allow you to rate 4.0 for regular leagues. I thought the same would apply for T ratings, but maybe not or maybe the fact that it is 5 years old has something to do with it.

J_R_B 03-20-2013 02:58 PM

The other thing to remember is that a self-rating appeal still shows up as S rated, not A rated, so you can't tell if she self-rated and appealed or not just by looking in TennisLink.

Cindysphinx 03-20-2013 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J_R_B (Post 7291638)
The other thing to remember is that a self-rating appeal still shows up as S rated, not A rated, so you can't tell if she self-rated and appealed or not just by looking in TennisLink.

She is older (55?), and it definitely says 4.0S.

I guess it's OK for her to play for us? There is a DQ risk, but that doesn't to stop the other captains from taking strong self-rates on their teams.

J_R_B 03-20-2013 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 7291755)
She is older (55?), and it definitely says 4.0S.

I guess it's OK for her to play for us? There is a DQ risk, but that doesn't to stop the other captains from taking strong self-rates on their teams.

It's definitely OK to sign her up, and yes, there is the DQ risk if she is that much better than everyone.

NumbersGuy 03-21-2013 03:57 AM

My section's NTRP coordinator tells me that the computer now checks for prior ratings when a player self-rates (it didn't the very first year they applied the rule), so that it's "not possible" for her to self-rate lower than her last published rating unless she successfully appeals first, which many have. Since she's a prospective member on your team, maybe you should ask her if she appealed first? Remember, if she signs up for you we'll pretty quickly figure out who you're talking about and ask your section coordinator about her for you! JRB I think the DQ risk Cindy's talking about is "fradulent self-rate" not "three strikes".

Cindysphinx 03-21-2013 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NumbersGuy (Post 7292606)
My section's NTRP coordinator tells me that the computer now checks for prior ratings when a player self-rates (it didn't the very first year they applied the rule), so that it's "not possible" for her to self-rate lower than her last published rating unless she successfully appeals first, which many have. Since she's a prospective member on your team, maybe you should ask her if she appealed first? Remember, if she signs up for you we'll pretty quickly figure out who you're talking about and ask your section coordinator about her for you! JRB I think the DQ risk Cindy's talking about is "fradulent self-rate" not "three strikes".

No, I don't think this is a fraud case. She didn't change her name to trick the computer. I don't think she lied in answering the question because she doesn't have the things that people tend to lie about (e.g. playing in college).

The risk is three strikes, as she is a singles player. Then again, this team is not playoff-bound, so if she gets DQ'd we will all survive. I will tell her to play hard, and we will let the chips fall where they may.

See . . . I have captained for years. I have seen certain other captains take on strong self-rated players, and there is rarely a DQ. Indeed, it seems very unusual for a 4.0 woman to get DQ'd and bumped to 4.5, especially one who didn't play in college.

If nothing else, it will give me a good story to tell all of you kind folks in about three months.

NumbersGuy 03-21-2013 04:30 AM

But it would be deemed fraudulent if she self-rated lower than her last published rating, even if the computer mistakenly let her do so, without an intervening appeal. Thus subject to DQ.

Cindysphinx 03-21-2013 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NumbersGuy (Post 7292647)
But it would be deemed fraudulent if she self-rated lower than her last published rating, even if the computer mistakenly let her do so, without an intervening appeal. Thus subject to DQ.

Oh, OK. I see what you're saying.

I wouldn't consider that fraud unless she did something dishonest. If the computer allowed her to rate as a 4.0 through the fault of USTA, I wouldn't consider her culpable. I also wouldn't expect her to understand how all this is supposed to work, as I don't understand it very well myself. Hence this thread.

Nevertheless, I am asking my league coordinator and plan to speak to the player directly just to make sure there wasn't an error or something.

NumbersGuy 03-21-2013 05:03 AM

Good. Because in the end it won't matter what you consider fraud, only what the USTA does. Just want you to be fully informed and to understand whatever risks you may choose to take.

rich s 03-21-2013 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J_R_B (Post 7291473)
If you look up his rating using the Find a Rating link on the League page, it will say 0.0, but if you go to his player page, it will show his last rating, which should be 4.5. He would have to self-rate at 4.5 and appeal. At least here, there have been several self-rating appeals granted so far this Spring. May vary by section, but it seems like Middle States is more interested in getting people playing than strictly policing artifical standards.

When you look him up on Find a Rating... he shows up as 0.0, when you look at his last match play result .... it lists him as 4.5

When he inquired (at the local level) about playing on our 4.0 team he was told that he was able to join the 4.0 team as a 4.0......

We play in the Atlanta area.... not sure if the rules are different than your area.

andfor 03-21-2013 06:38 AM

FYI. Medical appeals show up with an "S" rating. You would have to ask if she appealed for a medical reason. I thought a rating was good for 5 years and a player would have to sit out of all team tennis during that period to self-rate down.

I used to know most all the rules. Not anymore.


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