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-   -   Tennis Channel:Paul Goldstein GOAT jorneyman (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=458294)

jdubbs 03-20-2013 02:09 PM

Tennis Channel:Paul Goldstein GOAT jorneyman
 
Looking at his record, he had some impressive wins, including Rafter and even Djokovic at the Australian. Good guy, too!

Mustard 03-20-2013 02:25 PM

What about Brad Gilbert, Fabrice Santoro and Vincent Spadea?

Phoenix1983 03-20-2013 02:28 PM

^ Maybe I'm being too generous but I wouldn't call Santoro a journeyman.

Mustard 03-20-2013 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix1983 (Post 7291569)
^ Maybe I'm being too generous but I wouldn't call Santoro a journeyman.

What's the definition of a journeyman?

jdubbs 03-20-2013 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustard (Post 7291572)
What's the definition of a journeyman?

Someone who is good enough to make the tour and have a long career, but not get to the second week of slams typically.

NLBwell 03-20-2013 02:32 PM

Brad Gilbert was #4 in the world. Far above a journeyman by whatever definition you choose.

forzamilan90 03-20-2013 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdubbs (Post 7291575)
Someone who is good enough to make the tour and have a long career, but not get to the second week of slams typically.

well Santoro's only better results in slams than a 4th round is the 2006 AO. His record is also just on the average mark, barely positive. Journeyman to me.

jdubbs 03-20-2013 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forzamilan90 (Post 7291610)
well Santoro's only better results in slams than a 4th round is the 2006 AO. His record is also just on the average mark, barely positive. Journeyman to me.

Yeah but Santoro had a number of wins against quality competition. giant killer frustrating the heck out of most players. Like losing to a tennis coach.

comeback 03-20-2013 07:30 PM

"Journeyman" has to be one of the stupidest adjectives of all time used liberally by the broadcasting McEnroe's in the 90's until someone probably told them how ridiculous they sound.. .It implies that a professional tennis player consistently ranked between#30-60 is somehow a "second rate" player.. The #30+ best players in basketball, baseball and football make MILLIONS and are never called journeyman..

NLBwell 03-20-2013 08:18 PM

A journeyman is someone who has completed an apprenticeship and is fully educated in a trade or craft, but not yet a master. To become a master, a journeyman has to submit a master work piece to a guild for evaluation and be admitted to the guild as a master. (Wikipedia)

jourˇneyˇman [jur-nee-muhn] Show IPA
noun, plural jourˇneyˇmen.
1.
a person who has served an apprenticeship at a trade or handicraft and is certified to work at it assisting or under another person.
2.
any experienced, competent but routine worker or performer.
3.
a person hired to do work for another, usually for a day at a time.
(dictionary.com)

big ted 03-20-2013 10:19 PM

i dont think anyone with a top 20 ranking can be called a journeyman

kiki 03-20-2013 11:17 PM

Tennis journeymen are better off than many office ones

Phoenix1983 03-21-2013 05:21 AM

I would say if you have ever made a Grand Slam quarter-final, you are not a journeyman.

I hadn't realised Santoro only ever made one, but nevertheless, that still means he is no journeyman.

Mind you, Paradorn Srichaphan never made a slam quarter-final and I'm not sure I'd call him a journeyman either...

big ted 03-21-2013 06:57 PM

journeyman would probably have a match record of less than .500 with no tournament titles so that would exclude srichaphan, santoro, and definitely gilbert. even vince spadea may not even be considered a journeyman, he won one title and made $5M in prize money

bluetrain4 03-21-2013 07:39 PM

Problem is, there's no set definition when it comes to tennis journeyman. Not everyone agrees, so the discussion is stilted to start with.

To me, a journeyman is someone who has done well enough actually make a living playing tennis, but has never really "broken through" consistently. But, then what does "broken through" mean? A good Slam run, a ranking good enough to gain auto entry into many (even if not all) tournaments, a tournament win (even if a small one). But, even then, if a player achieves one of these things on one occasion and then goes away, I think he's still a journeyman.

Donald Young had a little run where me made USO fourth round, made some 250 and 500 semis and finals, got to 40ish in the rankings. But, he then lost all of his points and is now playing qualifers and challengers. If he does this for the majority of he rest of his career, I'd call him a journeyman. If he somehow gets back to the Top 40 and has those results again and maintains them for a while, then maybe not.

The thing is, tennis commentators use "journeyman" very generally - basically, anyone who has been around along time, but never did anything "big" (again, we can debate what "big" means). So, it's applied to a wide range of players. I've even heard it applied to players who clearly achieved non-journeyman results, but then stuck around and results dwindled. Thus, I've heard reference to the "journeyman phase of his/her career."

Right now, I think of Tim Smyczek as a true journeyman.

jdubbs 03-27-2013 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluetrain4 (Post 7294293)
Problem is, there's no set definition when it comes to tennis journeyman. Not everyone agrees, so the discussion is stilted to start with.

To me, a journeyman is someone who has done well enough actually make a living playing tennis, but has never really "broken through" consistently. But, then what does "broken through" mean? A good Slam run, a ranking good enough to gain auto entry into many (even if not all) tournaments, a tournament win (even if a small one). But, even then, if a player achieves one of these things on one occasion and then goes away, I think he's still a journeyman.

Donald Young had a little run where me made USO fourth round, made some 250 and 500 semis and finals, got to 40ish in the rankings. But, he then lost all of his points and is now playing qualifers and challengers. If he does this for the majority of he rest of his career, I'd call him a journeyman. If he somehow gets back to the Top 40 and has those results again and maintains them for a while, then maybe not.

The thing is, tennis commentators use "journeyman" very generally - basically, anyone who has been around along time, but never did anything "big" (again, we can debate what "big" means). So, it's applied to a wide range of players. I've even heard it applied to players who clearly achieved non-journeyman results, but then stuck around and results dwindled. Thus, I've heard reference to the "journeyman phase of his/her career."

Right now, I think of Tim Smyczek as a true journeyman.

That's true, those guys are journeymen, I'd also throw in Michael Russell and tons of others. But this thread was on the BEST of the journeymen.

comeback 03-27-2013 12:33 PM

The #1 player in the world just lost to someone who has AT TIMES been described as a 'journeyman" (Tommy Haas)

Moose Malloy 03-27-2013 01:28 PM

Quote:

The #1 player in the world just lost to someone who has AT TIMES been described as a 'journeyman" (Tommy Haas)
I've never heard anyone call him that, & I've followed his entire career.

paul goldstein spent most of his career ranked 70-100(& I think won more challengers than anyone)

If he wasn't a journeyman, I don't know who was.

comeback 03-27-2013 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 7308008)
I've never heard anyone call him that, & I've followed his entire career.

paul goldstein spent most of his career ranked 70-100(& I think won more challengers than anyone)

If he wasn't a journeyman, I don't know who was.

Congrats on being a fan of Tommy Haas..I am too....My point was how ridiculous that word "journeyman" is for any top 100 pro.
here is an article that refers to Haas as a higher level journeyman
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...ers-generation

NLBwell 03-27-2013 08:34 PM

Pretty silly of them to call someone who was #2 in the world a "jouneyman." So only if you were #1 in the world would you be better than a journeyman?


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