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-   -   NTRP Self Rate Question (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=458477)

icarus180 03-22-2013 10:03 AM

NTRP Self Rate Question
 
Hi all,

I've just signed up for USTA membership and I'm asked to self-rate. I plan to play 4.5 doubles, but also want to cut my teeth in some 4.0 singles tournaments. If I self-rate at 4.0, can I still enter doubles tournaments at 4.5? Will I be able to play 4.0 singles and 4.5 doubles in the same tournament?

Sorry if I've missed similar questions on the forum.

Many thanks!

SpitFire 03-22-2013 10:11 AM

Personally, I'd self-rate yourself as a 3.5.

If you're going to play tournaments, a LOT of guys sand-bag and rate themselves lower than what they really play at. I was in a 3.5 singles tournament last weekend and the two guys in the finals, were easy 4.0-4.5 players.

sam_p 03-22-2013 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icarus180 (Post 7295357)
Hi all,

I've just signed up for USTA membership and I'm asked to self-rate. I plan to play 4.5 doubles, but also want to cut my teeth in some 4.0 singles tournaments. If I self-rate at 4.0, can I still enter doubles tournaments at 4.5? Will I be able to play 4.0 singles and 4.5 doubles in the same tournament?

Sorry if I've missed similar questions on the forum.

Many thanks!

If you self-rate at 4.0, generally you can enter tournaments that are anywhere from 4.0 on upward.

I'm not sure there is much sense to what you are proposing, unless you have a doubles partner in mind who is a 4.5? When a real 4.5 team plays a real 4.0 team they will win very easily (in general) so why would you want to play in likely uncompetitive matches immediately? Why not just start out with 4.0 singles and doubles and see what happens? There is no race to the finish line and, as I see it, the name of the game in USTA tennis is to be challenged and to gradually improve your game through competition. "Playing up" isn't useful really (in a match, just hitting is a different beast) unless you are on the cusp of that transition.

Regarding the comment of the poster suggesting you self-rate at 3.5...I conditionally disagree. When I came back to tennis (after a 25 year total layoff), I got suggestions to self-rate at 3.5, not really based on my game. I had come back to playing for about 6 months when I signed up for USTA and it was clear to me from the guys I was playing with that I fit in with the 4.0 players. My first season I had about a 0.500 record in league and then improved each year until getting bumped to 4.5 a couple of years ago. Based on the guidelines from USTA, I was right to self-rate at 4.0 (I played in HS and did not in college, although probably could have if I hadn't quite playing). At the time I came back it was clear that I would have been an unfairly rated 3.5 and I would have had no fun in that situation I think, so I'm glad I did what I did.

You might want to consider asking a pro that you've worked with what you should rate yourself? A certified pro should be able to help you out a bit in an unbiased way.

Govnor 03-22-2013 10:56 AM

Here's the thing - how do you do against legit 4.5 players in singles and doubles right now? I assume from what you're saying, you are a better doubles player?

J_R_B 03-22-2013 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icarus180 (Post 7295357)
Hi all,

I've just signed up for USTA membership and I'm asked to self-rate. I plan to play 4.5 doubles, but also want to cut my teeth in some 4.0 singles tournaments. If I self-rate at 4.0, can I still enter doubles tournaments at 4.5? Will I be able to play 4.0 singles and 4.5 doubles in the same tournament?

Sorry if I've missed similar questions on the forum.

Many thanks!

Yes, this is perfectly fine for tournaments. Just don't do it in leagues if you are planning to play leagues as well, since your 4.5 league matches can be strikes against your 4.0 rating in league play.

icarus180 03-22-2013 02:50 PM

Thanks for the replies. I think the question has been answered. I play 4.6+ singles (not a ton of matches) and doubles (lots of matches) in my club but there seems to be an awful lot of rating inflation. Few among the guys in this club league play USTA NTRP tournies, but some do play USTA league and a few do age group tournaments. Two of the guys I play singles somewhat regularly with are USTA guys. One is a 4.0 with a 50% winning record in USTA singles. At the risk of sounding less than humble, I beat him pretty easily. The other guy was bumped to 4.5 and has a losing record in 4.5. I have to work my *** off to beat him, but beat him I do. The 4.0 guy tells me that I shouldn't self-rate at 4.0 b/c I'll get a rep as a "sandbagger." The 4.5 guy tells me I should play 4.0 and expect to bring home a trophy or two. I know he misses 4.0, and he's pretty salty about the bump. He's far more interested in tennis as a vehicle for athletic domination than I am.

From my point of view, I just want to rate correctly. I don't not super interested in winning a bunch of matches in a walk, nor do I want to be cannon fodder. I wouldn't call myself match tough in singles by any means, and I'm not particularly certain my body will be able to take multiple singles matches over a weekend very often. But I do want to try my hand and see where I stand. It seems much safer to self-rate potentially too low than too high. This seems to be what most of you are saying.

As for doubles, my prospective doubles partner is a USTA 4.5, and he wants to play 4.5 and open. If I want to play with him, I'll need to play 4.5 doubles. Sounds like this won't affect my singles rating. Based on the replies, I plan to self rate at 4.0. Many thanks.

Donald 03-22-2013 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icarus180 (Post 7295898)
Sounds like this won't affect my singles rating.

What do you mean won't affect? It certainly will affect your rating. There is no such thing as "singles" rating - the NTRP rating is the same for singles and doubles. Your doubles matches have on average about 1/2 of the effect compared to your singles matches. The only exception is mixed doubles, which indeed does not count towards your rating.

gmatheis 03-23-2013 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icarus180 (Post 7295898)
Thanks for the replies. I think the question has been answered. I play 4.6+ singles (not a ton of matches) and doubles (lots of matches) in my club but there seems to be an awful lot of rating inflation. Few among the guys in this club league play USTA NTRP tournies, but some do play USTA league and a few do age group tournaments. Two of the guys I play singles somewhat regularly with are USTA guys. One is a 4.0 with a 50% winning record in USTA singles. At the risk of sounding less than humble, I beat him pretty easily. The other guy was bumped to 4.5 and has a losing record in 4.5. I have to work my *** off to beat him, but beat him I do. The 4.0 guy tells me that I shouldn't self-rate at 4.0 b/c I'll get a rep as a "sandbagger." The 4.5 guy tells me I should play 4.0 and expect to bring home a trophy or two. I know he misses 4.0, and he's pretty salty about the bump. He's far more interested in tennis as a vehicle for athletic domination than I am.

From my point of view, I just want to rate correctly. I don't not super interested in winning a bunch of matches in a walk, nor do I want to be cannon fodder. I wouldn't call myself match tough in singles by any means, and I'm not particularly certain my body will be able to take multiple singles matches over a weekend very often. But I do want to try my hand and see where I stand. It seems much safer to self-rate potentially too low than too high. This seems to be what most of you are saying.

As for doubles, my prospective doubles partner is a USTA 4.5, and he wants to play 4.5 and open. If I want to play with him, I'll need to play 4.5 doubles. Sounds like this won't affect my singles rating. Based on the replies, I plan to self rate at 4.0. Many thanks.

should have led with this information :)

Sounds to me like you're a low 4.5 based on the fact that you work hard to beat a person that has been bumped to 4.5 but really doesnt win at that level

Being a low 4.5 I think it's a good to self rate as a 4.0 and I don't mean to sandbag. The guys you play you know their games and are used to them ... if you start playing tourneys you will run into many different play styles, some of which may give you trouble until you get more experience. At 4.0 you should have success ... maybe bring home some trophies as your friend stated. If it turns out you bring home more than the occasional trophy then by all means move on to 4.5 singles but test the waters out first at 4.0. It's so much easier to play up to 4.5 if you find 4.0 too easy than it is to appeal your rating if you find 4.5 too hard.

J_R_B 03-23-2013 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donald (Post 7296488)
What do you mean won't affect? It certainly will affect your rating. There is no such thing as "singles" rating - the NTRP rating is the same for singles and doubles. Your doubles matches have on average about 1/2 of the effect compared to your singles matches. The only exception is mixed doubles, which indeed does not count towards your rating.

It won't affect his rating until the end of the year. This isn't league so he can't be DQ'd. He can play 4.0 singles tounaments and 4.5 doubles tournaments until the end of the year when he'll likely be rated 4.5 T.

Praetorian 03-24-2013 09:03 AM

Hmmm... Let me share my experiences.

A couple of years ago, after about a 20 year absence, I decided to play tennis again, so I dusted off my OG Wilson Profile, and played in some rec groups. After about a month, a players who ran a tennis league, asked me to join the team. I self ranked myself at 3.0, and was put in the appropriate league. Fast forward 6 weeks, and we were undefeated (can't say it was all me, I just helped). At that point, I decided to play a tournament at 3.0. It was over a weekend, and by the time I got to the final after playing 4 matches in the Texas heat, I lost it bad. Now here is where it go interesting. The USTA officials wouldn't let me play the next 3.0 tournament because they basically said I was sand bagging (they used nicer words of course). They stuck me at the 3.5-4.0 tournament. Rise, repeat, so the next one they stuck me in the 4.5. I got to the quarters, and I asked if I could be bumped back down, and they wouldn't let me. Unfortunately, in my area (didn't want to go to far out), it topped at 4.5, and it was the domain of former college players, so I got smacked around.
The punchline of this joke, is that with a LOT of the players in the 3.0, 3.5-4.0, most of them thought they .5-1.5 levels higher on the NTRP than they really are, and that they played these "lower" level tournaments, because they like "winning". LOL

colowhisper 03-24-2013 04:03 PM

Just another two cents here for the benefit of other searching this topic, sounds like you figured it out. I had similar experince coming back to playing after many years off. Basically even if its been a long time, but you really know how to play tennis because of muscle memory from your youth I think you should start at 4.0 minimum. This is because the range of abilities at that level are so varied that you can "fit in" for awhile and not be accused of sandbagging and sharpen your game. Any lower and you're not really playing tennis, going higher means a lot more physical conditioning and practiced shots. Biggest difference in my experience as you play up is the serve.

gmatheis 03-24-2013 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pbarrow (Post 7300447)
Just another two cents here for the benefit of other searching this topic, sounds like you figured it out. I had similar experince coming back to playing after many years off. Basically even if its been a long time, but you really know how to play tennis because of muscle memory from your youth I think you should start at 4.0 minimum. This is because the range of abilities at that level are so varied that you can "fit in" for awhile and not be accused of sandbagging and sharpen your game. Any lower and you're not really playing tennis, going higher means a lot more physical conditioning and practiced shots. Biggest difference in my experience as you play up is the serve.

Wow think a bit much of yourself here?

Obviously you are in the level that is "real" tennis ... kudos!

cork_screw 03-24-2013 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icarus180 (Post 7295357)
Hi all,

I've just signed up for USTA membership and I'm asked to self-rate. I plan to play 4.5 doubles, but also want to cut my teeth in some 4.0 singles tournaments. If I self-rate at 4.0, can I still enter doubles tournaments at 4.5? Will I be able to play 4.0 singles and 4.5 doubles in the same tournament?

Sorry if I've missed similar questions on the forum.

Many thanks!

Any USTA league play is very very competitive. If you decide to self-rate yourself as a 4.5, be sure that you are a 4.5 or they will tear you apart. I would say that even the 3.5's are really good and a lot of guys who are above that ranking go down to lower levels to sandbag and win tournaments. If you focus a lot on strategizing then 4.5 may be an accurate fit, but a lot of people think they're intermediate just because they hit well and then they get blown off the court because the pairing and strategizing that goes on in intermediate-advanced doubles is more than just your hitting or playing ability. It's being on the same page as your partner. It's the organization they play, and off time drilling each other for certain moments to play certain shots.

What I would do is I would attend some open matches during match play check out a facility that hosts some 4.5 doubles and see if you fit in well with them. Like Charles Darwin. Through observation you find answers.


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