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-   -   Line calls really do get closer when it comes to playoffs.. (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=458563)

andyaycw 03-23-2013 02:30 PM

Line calls really do get closer when it comes to playoffs..
 
Second season for me in USTA league, first time advancing to playoffs. Could this situation have been handled better and what do you think of our opponents?

Doubles league match, I am playing the Deuce side. Down 0-1 in the first set, opponent hits a 1st serve out wide which I call out. He takes a 2nd serve. Very next point, opponent's serve looks long, but too close to call as I figure it may have hit the very, very back of the line. I call the serve good, play continues.

Few games later: we are now up 2-1. Opponent hits a ball in the very corner of the Ad court. My partner calls it out (looks out to me as well...but IF it were in, it may have clipped the outside edge of the line). Opponent protests saying it was inside the line, and says it is the second bad call (references the first serve out wide which I called out). They request a referee. We win the next point and I shout "come on!". Okay, my bad probably shouldn't have done that as it just upset our opponents even more, says something like is that a smart remark? I ignore and keep my mouth shut the rest of the match.

We won the match 2 and 1, and afterwards I thanked our opponents for calling a referee because we wanted a fair match as well.

Who was in the right, who was in the wrong? I am surprised our opponents called a referee as there were probably 4 close shots leading up to that 4th game, two of which we called good, and two called out. Did they really think we were trying to intentionally hook them on calls with that track record, especially so early on in the match on relatively unimportant points?

Since returning to tennis (somewhat) competitively, I have played close to 15 league matches, and I can't even remember being questioned on any line calls leading up to this match.

Thoughts? It's a shame really...it takes away the feeling of this win, no matter how legitimate it was.

storypeddler 03-23-2013 03:03 PM

I've been on both sides of that one---though I typically don't question an opponent's calls unless they are so horrible that it is undeniably clear the intent is to cheat to win. I watch enough tennis on television to know that even the pros are wrong as often as they are right when they question line calls. Just watch how often they are wrong on challenges. Close balls make for close calls and some you get right and some you get wrong. That's why the rule is to give the point away if you are not completely sure of the call. If you are, make the call in good faith and don't worry about it. Sometimes people see balls the way they want to see them in important matches. Most players are good sports and honest on the court. On the rare occasion when you have an issue like this one, you handle it as fairly as you can---which sounds like exactly what you all did.

gameboy 03-23-2013 08:22 PM

Meh.

If your opponent was here posting, he would be *****ing about how he got cheated out of two clear calls and everyone here would be cheering about how smart it was to call for the referee or how he should have cheated back.

Just shut up and play. Your opponent did you a favor getting the ref.

andyaycw 03-23-2013 09:50 PM

Agreed. There's always two sides of the story, and hearing only one side can be a bit biased.

Point is: there was no intention of cheating. All calls were made in good faith, and I was relieved that they called a ref.

Good point though: it could have really gotten out of control had they not called a ref and decided to just try and get back at us later.

t135 03-23-2013 10:11 PM

The pros on TV rarely win their line call challenges. It's always been ridiculous to me when rec league players become self proclaimed line calling experts in their matches. Incapable of making a mistake with a line call.

goober 03-24-2013 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t135 (Post 7298721)
The pros on TV rarely win their line call challenges. It's always been ridiculous to me when rec league players become self proclaimed line calling experts in their matches. Incapable of making a mistake with a line call.

I wouldn't call 30% rare. Rare would be something like 1-2 %

Quote:

Statistics taken from the Wimbledon tennis tournament in 2009 showed that only 29.62 percent of player challenges were correct in the men's singles tournament, while 29.23 percent of challenges were correct in the women's singles tournament

goober 03-24-2013 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyaycw (Post 7297926)
Second season for me in USTA league, first time advancing to playoffs. Could this situation have been handled better and what do you think of our opponents?

Doubles league match, I am playing the Deuce side. Down 0-1 in the first set, opponent hits a 1st serve out wide which I call out. He takes a 2nd serve. Very next point, opponent's serve looks long, but too close to call as I figure it may have hit the very, very back of the line. I call the serve good, play continues.

Few games later: we are now up 2-1. Opponent hits a ball in the very corner of the Ad court. My partner calls it out (looks out to me as well...but IF it were in, it may have clipped the outside edge of the line). Opponent protests saying it was inside the line, and says it is the second bad call (references the first serve out wide which I called out). They request a referee. We win the next point and I shout "come on!". Okay, my bad probably shouldn't have done that as it just upset our opponents even more, says something like is that a smart remark? I ignore and keep my mouth shut the rest of the match.

We won the match 2 and 1, and afterwards I thanked our opponents for calling a referee because we wanted a fair match as well.

Who was in the right, who was in the wrong? I am surprised our opponents called a referee as there were probably 4 close shots leading up to that 4th game, two of which we called good, and two called out. Did they really think we were trying to intentionally hook them on calls with that track record, especially so early on in the match on relatively unimportant points?

Since returning to tennis (somewhat) competitively, I have played close to 15 league matches, and I can't even remember being questioned on any line calls leading up to this match.

Thoughts? It's a shame really...it takes away the feeling of this win, no matter how legitimate it was.

In regular league matches there are no refs around. So one could not be called in any case. Not as much is at stake. In playoffs I have basically seen all manner of shannigans pulled. Since you won 1 and 2, you were out of the league of the other team. Not much point in them trying to call a ref IMO.

t135 03-24-2013 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober (Post 7299945)
I wouldn't call 30% rare. Rare would be something like 1-2 %

3 out of 10 challenges are correct? 30 out of 100? Players be wishin that ball was in...or they need an eye exam. They are almost always wrong with their challenges. And rarely correct.

We aren't talking about a life or death situation here. It's about good sportsmanship and the naked eye being unable to see that 1 mm part of the ball (going 30-100 mph) that caught the outside edge of the line. So you have to use a computer replay to confirm the call. But the dude in the rec league match on a Tuesday night in Omaha is always right about every line call...on both sides of the net no less. In the playoffs he's right more than 100% of the time.

gmatheis 03-24-2013 05:09 PM

The ratio of pro's challenges being right or wrong isnt a good standard for judging how well the pros see the ball because they often use a challenges for strategic reasons not because they really think the call was wrong.

chatt_town 03-24-2013 08:29 PM

Sounds like a couple of guys that are in denial. I don't say that just to be on your side because you are posting. I say that for this reason. If they lost 2 and 1, they clearly had some more serious issues going on then the two line calls you may have gotten wrong. I have run into players like that. I don't think you were wrong persay.
I think everyone is entitled to do as they wish as long as it's not in interfere with the match or the points if you will. It's up to the other person or team to not let it get into their head. I let a guy ramble on and on for the entire first set of a match a couple of tourneys ago. I eventually go off and let him have it. After one of the directors or whatever come on to the court to calm things down. He shuts up and we finish them off. Some people are out there to raise hell and not to play Tennis.

The worst thing they can do is call a ref. That means they have to start playing and stop all of the nonsense. You are right...the best thing that could have happened is they called a referee out.


Quote:

Originally Posted by andyaycw (Post 7297926)
Second season for me in USTA league, first time advancing to playoffs. Could this situation have been handled better and what do you think of our opponents?

Doubles league match, I am playing the Deuce side. Down 0-1 in the first set, opponent hits a 1st serve out wide which I call out. He takes a 2nd serve. Very next point, opponent's serve looks long, but too close to call as I figure it may have hit the very, very back of the line. I call the serve good, play continues.

Few games later: we are now up 2-1. Opponent hits a ball in the very corner of the Ad court. My partner calls it out (looks out to me as well...but IF it were in, it may have clipped the outside edge of the line). Opponent protests saying it was inside the line, and says it is the second bad call (references the first serve out wide which I called out). They request a referee. We win the next point and I shout "come on!". Okay, my bad probably shouldn't have done that as it just upset our opponents even more, says something like is that a smart remark? I ignore and keep my mouth shut the rest of the match.

We won the match 2 and 1, and afterwards I thanked our opponents for calling a referee because we wanted a fair match as well.

Who was in the right, who was in the wrong? I am surprised our opponents called a referee as there were probably 4 close shots leading up to that 4th game, two of which we called good, and two called out. Did they really think we were trying to intentionally hook them on calls with that track record, especially so early on in the match on relatively unimportant points?

Since returning to tennis (somewhat) competitively, I have played close to 15 league matches, and I can't even remember being questioned on any line calls leading up to this match.

Thoughts? It's a shame really...it takes away the feeling of this win, no matter how legitimate it was.


andyaycw 03-24-2013 10:07 PM

To be fair, it was very early in the first set. It's not like they started questioning our line calls after they were down 0-6; 0-5 or something like that. At 2-1 in the first set, I doubt anyone would have predicted such a clear cut win (at least scoreline-wise).

Regarding the challenges in the pro matches: I agree that most of the time they are used strategically in the off chance a ball may have just clipped the line on an important point. I think a better gauge though, is seeing how the lines people can call certain balls out, that a replay will show hit right smack on the line...and to think, that's the only thing they're supposed to do is watch the lines.

Good example: I was actually just watching the Miami match between Ferrer and Fognini. At 6-1; 1-0 and 15-0 Fognini challenges a call that was called wide, and the replay showed that 95% of the ball hit the sideline.

goober 03-24-2013 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t135 (Post 7300181)
3 out of 10 challenges are correct? 30 out of 100? Players be wishin that ball was in...or they need an eye exam. They are almost always wrong with their challenges. And rarely correct.
.


I have seen a lot of correct challenges. 30% is from the published statistics given at Wimbledon for correct player challenges.

Men's Women's
Total Number of Challenges 428 191
Number of Correct Challenges 120 49
Number of Incorrect Challenges 308 142
Percentage Overturned 28.04% 25.65%
Avg. Challenges per Match 7.78 4.06

There were 10 players that had 50% overturns based on their challenges. Djoker was not bad either challenging 20 times and getting 9 overturns for 45%

http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/score...nge/index.html

dizzlmcwizzl 03-25-2013 10:05 AM

The other thing I will point out is that when pros challenge they are challenging the perception of someone whose only job is to call one line from the perfect position to call that line. Often they do this after having hit a ball on the dead run from across the court. In this case I think pros challenging correctly 30% of the time is impressive and indicates how hard it is to accurately call lines sometimes ...

I truly believe that if the hawkeye system existed for rec tennis the overturn percentage would be considerably higher.

Heck, I suspect I would challenge myself quite a bit ... you know, a ball hits close to the line and I play it as good. Then after I shank the ball into the net I call for hawkeye to give me a second chance at the point.

In fact, there is probably no way I would be able to conserve my challenges to make it through an entire set. Even if I was right 60-70% of the time I could not help myself.

gmatheis 03-25-2013 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober (Post 7300993)
I have seen a lot of correct challenges. 30% is from the published statistics given at Wimbledon for correct player challenges.

Men's Women's
Total Number of Challenges 428 191
Number of Correct Challenges 120 49
Number of Incorrect Challenges 308 142
Percentage Overturned 28.04% 25.65%
Avg. Challenges per Match 7.78 4.06

There were 10 players that had 50% overturns based on their challenges. Djoker was not bad either challenging 20 times and getting 9 overturns for 45%

http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/score...nge/index.html

again .. alot of these challenges are used when the player doesnt really expect the call to be overturned ... just because
- its late in the set and you still have 3 left .. it's worth a shot
- just had a long rally and really want a few more seconds to recover
- important point didnt go your way ... what the heck might as well take a chance.

I bet if the pro's only challenged when they really believed the call was wrong the percentages would be much higher, probably 50% or over.

tennis_ocd 03-26-2013 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzlmcwizzl (Post 7301657)
I truly believe that if the hawkeye system existed for rec tennis the overturn percentage would be considerably higher.

Hopefully only if you're able to challange your own "IN" call :)

With lines people, lines must be accurately called each and every shot and are open to challange from either side. Rec players have it much easier -- simply if they see it definately out. Therefore rec tennis calls should very rarely be overturned.

Govnor 03-28-2013 10:15 AM

You called it how you saw it. They called you a liar. That would **** almost anyone off. I have no problem with your "come on" in that situation, you were pumped up.

No big deal, IMO.


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