Talk Tennis

Talk Tennis (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php)
-   General Pro Player Discussion (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13)
-   -   Stop with the Serena is greatest nonsense (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=459358)

McEnborg 03-31-2013 10:41 AM

Stop with the Serena is greatest nonsense
 
Serena Williams has won 48 WTA events.

Martina won 167. Evert won 157. Graf won 107.

Martina has 18 grand slam titles and 377 weeks as World's Number One. She has a combined 350 total titles, including doubles and mixed.

Evert has 332 weeks at number One and 18 grand slam titles.

Graf has TWENTY TWO grand slam titles and 262 weeks at number One.


Serena has 130 weeks at number One. She has 15 slam titles but she has only won ONE French Open--JUST ONE (11 years ago).

When Serena is on with her all power game, she can be awesome. But, to say she's the best of all time is a freaking disgrace and shows a person's unintelligence. Serena's lack of consistency and durability, bad losses, minimal success on clay and other factors make it a pathetic argument to call her the greatest.

NadalAgassi 03-31-2013 10:44 AM

The tournament counts of Navratilova and Evert are just proof of what a royal joke womens tennis was before the 90s at the earliest. Back then everyone not named Navratilova and Evert totally sucked, and they barely broke a sweat winning all matches to reach every final for 20 years, so of course they could win 200 tournaments. You will see players win that many titles again, the game is far too physical and competitive now for that to even be possible. For me Serena is #1 or #2 all time or atleast in the Open Era, with Graf the only one possability over her, and Navratilova a strong 3rd (Court and Evert tied for 4th).

mmk 03-31-2013 10:50 AM

Steffi might have had a few less slam titles had it not been for GŁnter Parche

kishnabe 03-31-2013 10:51 AM

Serena would thrash them both at their peaks.

For what Martina went through from media oppression, facing hatred for her being a lesbian and beating Americian Sweetheart, and her total dominance.

Martina is the greatest. Though I would put money on Serena best to beat Martina best.

THUNDERVOLLEY 03-31-2013 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmk (Post 7316495)
Steffi might have had a few less slam titles had it not been for GŁnter Parche

Nonsense.

Seles is overrated, and had no game for Wimbledon..as in winning it.

NadalAgassi 03-31-2013 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmk (Post 7316495)
Steffi might have had a few less slam titles had it not been for GŁnter Parche

She would probably still have atleast 20. Even if Seles had won 8 slams in the 93-96 period total (IMO very generous) that would still leave Graf with atleast 8 which would her 20 total.

Either way the Graf-Seles era as far as overall competition, while I step up from the Navratilova-Evert era is still nothing like the last 15 years where womens tennis has finally become a real sport as far as depth. None of those players would win as many slams playing in Serena's era as they did in their own.

TennisDawg 03-31-2013 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi (Post 7316454)
The tournament counts of Navratilova and Evert are just proof of what a royal joke womens tennis was before the 90s at the earliest. Back then everyone not named Navratilova and Evert totally sucked, and they barely broke a sweat winning all matches to reach every final for 20 years, so of course they could win 200 tournaments. You will see players win that many titles again, the game is far too physical and competitive now for that to even be possible. For me Serena is #1 or #2 all time or atleast in the Open Era, with Graf the only one possability over her, and Navratilova a strong 3rd (Court and Evert tied for 4th).

I agree with your post. All I say is just take a look at an old film of a match between Evert and any of her opponents and it's like you wanna say "somebody please put the ball away and can't you run any faster for crying out loud" Martina and Billie Jean King dominating with S/V in womens tennis, really? I mean really? Back then if a female player was tall and strong looking they moved like cows, not so nowadays. Evert and Martina would be scrubs in todays tennis.

NadalAgassi 03-31-2013 11:27 AM

Pam Shriver who couldnt hit a groundstroke, moved like a handicapt, and couldnt do anything except hit a pretty serve and pretty good volley, was the World #4 the majority of the 80s. Draw your own conclusions. Evert and Navratilova's toughest opponent by far was a 15-17 year old Tracy Austin, a tiny one dimensional baseliner with no serve, no net game, and no variety, before her career fell apart from injuries starting at 17, and she was basically retired before 20. Nobody came close to giving them the trouble this Tracy did, and she did more damage in only 2 years than anyone else of their long era could do in their whole careers against them until Graf emerged. Again draw your own conclusions.

spinovic 03-31-2013 11:31 AM

I'm not interested in all the other arguments, but I agree in general with the original post. I think Serena needs to win a few more slams to seriously be in the discussion. I think her inconsistency through the years have hurt her. She should already have more slams, but it seems that she just lost interest at times in addition to some bad luck with injuries/health problems. At the same time, that has limited the wear and tear on her body and is probably part of the reason she's still playing so well at 30+.

She's still playing great and still has time to get there though...if she can stay healthy and keep her focus. But, she's getting older and when her movement declines, I think she's done. Winning another French would help.

NadalAgassi 03-31-2013 11:38 AM

The biggest reason many are now starting to see Serena as the GOAT is:

1. She is dominant and by far the best player on the planet at age 31. No player has ever done that at that age ever before. The closet was Court being the #1 player and winning a couple slams at 30. Navratilova who is seen as the late blooming queen even lost her #1 and best in the Worlds status to Steffi Graf at age 30, and was then literally Grand Slammed out of current relevance altogether by Graf at age 31.

2. Her peak level of play (2002-2003) and other instances (Olympics this past year) is the highest ever seen by a women. This is undisputable.

3. She dominated the toughest and deepest womens field in tennis history from 1999-2005.

4. Her unmatched Olympics record.

5. She is the only women in the post Navratilova years to be dominant in both singles and doubles.

6. Her serve is the greatest single shot in tennis history, overtaking the Graf forehand which previously was. She has the overall most powerful game in history as well. She also has a very complete game without a single weakness.

barry 03-31-2013 11:43 AM

All I know is when Serena plays I turn it off and don't watch.
Why watch an inferior product like the WTA, when the ATP is so much better, and Serena could not beat a top 100 ATP player.

chatt_town 03-31-2013 11:43 AM

That's a fair statement. :) I am a big Serena fan but that is very fair.


Quote:

Originally Posted by kishnabe (Post 7316500)
Serena would thrash them both at their peaks.

For what Martina went through from media oppression, facing hatred for her being a lesbian and beating Americian Sweetheart, and her total dominance.

Martina is the greatest. Though I would put money on Serena best to beat Martina best.


NadalAgassi 03-31-2013 11:47 AM

Navratilova is not the greatest. She was no more dominant than Graf and Court at their peaks, as they also lost 2 matches a year in their best year, in fact she was less as she couldnt win the Grand Slam as they managed. Her longevity is overrated considering her longevity on peak level or dominant player is far less than all of Graf, Court, Evert, and Serena. All of her non Wimbledons came in a 5 year span 1982-1987. Her only two 3 slam years happened in 1983-1984. Graf and Court had 3 slam years 8 and 11 years apart. Her consistency is by far the worst of all the GOAT candidates. Her versatility is also the worst, with relatively speaking weaker performances on clay and rebound ace. Her competition was not strong, the 82-86 era was one of the weakest in history. Evert even faced far more depth during her reign from 74-81.

I personally think Court and Evert should even rank over Navratilova. Graf and Serena above her are a no brainer IMO, especialy Graf.

Amelie Mauresmo 03-31-2013 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McEnborg (Post 7316434)
Serena Williams has won 48 WTA events.

Martina won 167. Evert won 157. Graf won 107.

Martina has 18 grand slam titles and 377 weeks as World's Number One. She has a combined 350 total titles, including doubles and mixed.

Evert has 332 weeks at number One and 18 grand slam titles.

Graf has TWENTY TWO grand slam titles and 262 weeks at number One.


Serena has 130 weeks at number One. She has 15 slam titles but she has only won ONE French Open--JUST ONE (11 years ago).

When Serena is on with her all power game, she can be awesome. But, to say she's the best of all time is a freaking disgrace and shows a person's unintelligence. Serena's lack of consistency and durability, bad losses, minimal success on clay and other factors make it a pathetic argument to call her the greatest.

The problem with those Graf, Evert, Navratilova records is about TIME and different ERAs. Big deal, Graf won 107 WTA events you do realize how pathetic the WTA was in the late 1980s, Steffi just had to step on the court and she would win a match 6-0 6-1. Steffi's opponents did not have the mental toughness or the belief they can BEAT HER. You cannot compare eras because in the past the depth just wasn't there.

Remember Graf destroying Natasha Zvereva 6-0 6-0 in 32 minutes to win the 1988 French Open. It was such a disgrace that result it showed the lack of depth in the women's game.

Look, OP back in the 70s, 80s, and 1990s, women's tennis had very little depth 1 or 2 women in total were dominating the game. Women's tennis was a complete joke everyone knew in the early to mid 1980s Navratilova or Evert would WIN the slams. That was boring. Tracy Austin and Hana Mandlikova offered a slight resistence to Evert and Navatilova but not much. Tracy Austin got injured I really feel if Tracy didn't have the back problems she could have been amazing.

In the late 1980s Graf blew Evert and Navratiova off the court due to her power and youth. Monica Seles came along in 1990 an even younger player and she dominated Graf 3-1 in slams prior to her stabbing. Seles was Graf's only rival but once she got stabbed and out of the way Steffi dominated again.

Serena Williams has do to compete against multiple slam champions her sister Venus, Justine Henin, Martina Hingis, Lindsay Davenport, Kim Clijsters, Amelie Mauresmo.

I think Serena is BETTER than Evert, Navratilova, and Graf BECAUSE she has competed against THREE GENERATIONS on the WTA tour and she's consistently dominated them.

Serena is the oldest number one in women's tennis history there is NEVER going to be another woman like her with her intensity, her huge serve, and her mental toughness.

Graf, Evert, Navratilova, could always count on their opppnents choking against them and finding a way to lose.

Serena is amazing because the DEPTH in women's tennis is so much greater now. The women are serving bigger, they are stronger physically and mentally too.

Graf's 22 slam record is inflated because Monica Seles got stabbed by Gunther Parche. When Monica Seles was gone Steffi of course dominated the inferior competition the Sabatini, Martinez, Novotna, Sanchez Vicario, Mary Joe Fernandez type players. Sanchez Vicario challenged Graf a little bit but she also lost several major finals against Graf during her second period of dominance from 1993 to 1996.

The Meat 03-31-2013 12:38 PM

Why is this discussion still happening? Different eras, different players....

struggle 03-31-2013 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McEnborg (Post 7316434)
Serena Williams has won 48 WTA events.

Martina won 167. Evert won 157. Graf won 107.

Martina has 18 grand slam titles and 377 weeks as World's Number One. She has a combined 350 total titles, including doubles and mixed.

Evert has 332 weeks at number One and 18 grand slam titles.

Graf has TWENTY TWO grand slam titles and 262 weeks at number One.


Serena has 130 weeks at number One. She has 15 slam titles but she has only won ONE French Open--JUST ONE (11 years ago).

When Serena is on with her all power game, she can be awesome. But, to say she's the best of all time is a freaking disgrace and shows a person's unintelligence. Serena's lack of consistency and durability, bad losses, minimal success on clay and other factors make it a pathetic argument to call her the greatest.

I'm baggin' what you are mowing. And I agree. Martina's GS total (all disciplines) is staggering to be sure.

So instead of greatest ever, we'll just go with best ever......as in nobody in history (at top form) is beating Serena (in top form).
Different eras, equipment etc.....sure but i'd still put my money on her no matter. Her game translates well to other eras.

Amelie Mauresmo 03-31-2013 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spinovic (Post 7316753)
I'm not interested in all the other arguments, but I agree in general with the original post. I think Serena needs to win a few more slams to seriously be in the discussion. I think her inconsistency through the years have hurt her. She should already have more slams, but it seems that she just lost interest at times in addition to some bad luck with injuries/health problems. At the same time, that has limited the wear and tear on her body and is probably part of the reason she's still playing so well at 30+.

She's still playing great and still has time to get there though...if she can stay healthy and keep her focus. But, she's getting older and when her movement declines, I think she's done. Winning another French would help.

Serena's inconsistency I believe is due to her body she gets injured A LOT. Serena's also had personal problems which I believe people are ignoring.

Some people act like Serena isn't a human being with feelings and emotions and doesn't get hurt by the BIGOTRY she's experienced in tennis.

The USA tennis establishment is ONLY being "nice" to Serena Williams now because they realize she's only got a short time left in the game.

American tennis is in the toilet WITHOUT Serena Williams she's been the leader of American tennis for several years winning a lot of grand slams.

But the RACISM is something I don't like how people casually ignore and the negative treatment Serena has received because she's an outspoken and confident black woman.

A lot of people also ignore the fact Serena Williams is a pioneer along with her sister Venus they changed the game for women's tennis in terms of power.

But another issue people ignore is the RACISM the Williams Sisters especially Serena endured from the racist USA tennis establishment.

You have AMERICAN tennis commentators openly ROOTING for a foreigner to beat Serena Williams simply because the opponent is white.

Nobody seems to think how did this racism affect Serena emotionally and psychologically? Serena is constantly being criticized, attacked, because she's a black woman dominating a white country club sport. People make all kinds of excuses but I think the RACISM affected Serena more than Venus.

Mary Carillo isn't hiding her RACISM against Serena Williams she's constantly attacking her. Does anyone honestly believe Carillo would EVER attack the white American female players like Lindsay Davenport or Jennifer Capriati in the same cruel manner?

I believe this is part of the reason why only NOW has she seriously got going racking up the slams. People also ignore the fact in 2003 Serena's older sister Yetunde was murdered and it shocked her and she became depressed. People act like tennis players do NOT have a life off the court. Serena is still around because she did NOT burnout she realized she needed to stay away from tennis for a while during her time of grief in order to get her confidence back and be fresh.

ollinger 03-31-2013 12:46 PM

The OP's stats about tournament wins tell us very little about who was the better player. Navratilova played over 1600 singles matches in her careeer; Serena has played about 700. Likewise for some of the other all-time greats who played alot more tennis than Serena in their careers. Analyzing these numbers makes even less sense in that Serena's career is still in progress and the others were completed long ago. Talent and longevity are two different issues; both Evert and Navratilova have said they consider Serena the most talented female ever to play the game.

NadalAgassi 03-31-2013 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amelie Mauresmo (Post 7316951)
The problem with those Graf, Evert, Navratilova records is about TIME and different ERAs. Big deal, Graf won 107 WTA events you do realize how pathetic the WTA was in the late 1980s, Steffi just had to step on the court and she would win a match 6-0 6-1. Steffi's opponents did not have the mental toughness or the belief they can BEAT HER. You cannot compare eras because in the past the depth just wasn't there.

Remember Graf destroying Natasha Zvereva 6-0 6-0 in 32 minutes to win the 1988 French Open. It was such a disgrace that result it showed the lack of depth in the women's game.

Look, OP back in the 70s, 80s, and 1990s, women's tennis had very little depth 1 or 2 women in total were dominating the game. Women's tennis was a complete joke everyone knew in the early to mid 1980s Navratilova or Evert would WIN the slams. That was boring. Tracy Austin and Hana Mandlikova offered a slight resistence to Evert and Navatilova but not much. Tracy Austin got injured I really feel if Tracy didn't have the back problems she could have been amazing.


So true. Just look at what Navratilova, Graf, and Seles faced while on top:

Navratilova 1982-1986: A joke era. A worst ever slumping Evert (82-84) or aging 30-32 year old Evert (84-86) was her only competition, along with Hana in late 85-86. The rest of the top 10 were an old Turnbull Shriver, a bunch of second tier Germans like Hanika, Kohde Kilsch, Bunge, or second tier Americans like Gaudesek, Rinaldi, Potter. Graf and Sabatini were only 13-16 year olds in 85 and 86 and obviously not ready to challenge at the very top.

Graf 1987-1990 and 1993-1996: Navratilova, and on faster courts only, was her only competition in the first part, along with Sabatini. Then after Seles was stabbed Sanchez was her only competition.

Seles 1990-1993: Her only competition was Graf in her worst ever slump, losing 7 of 8 matches to Sabatini at one point, and not even playing Seles in a major match for 2 whole years at one point, and a now mid 30s Navratilova. Mostly beating Mary Joe Fernandez or Aranxta Sanchez Vicario in slam semis or finals.


Graf and Seles, as well as Navratilova and Evert never faced each other at their best apart from maybe Navratilova and Evert in 78-79 so they didnt even have each other as competition really. They had nothing. Serena has faced Venus, Henin, Davenport, Clijsters, Hingis, Sharapova, and many other multi slam winners at their best for many years.

Tennis_Monk 03-31-2013 01:07 PM

She has great records and credentials.
That said , i dont like her (i do like her game) and hence she cant be a GOAT in my book.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:06 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006 - Tennis Warehouse