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-   -   Self rated players bumped mid season but not DQed? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=459820)

beernutz 04-04-2013 08:23 PM

Self rated players bumped mid season but not DQed?
 
Like the subject says, this appears to have happened to two players at my club but I didn't believe it was possible. The players were both self rated but now have been moved up a level and given a D (dynamic) rating as of yesterday. They were both on a team which had played the first two of its ten season matches but they were not DQed for their victories in those matches.

Does anyone have any clarifying information about what might have happened?

J_R_B 04-04-2013 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beernutz (Post 7325773)
Like the subject says, this appears to have happened to two players at my club but I didn't believe it was possible. The players were both self rated but now have been moved up a level and given a D (dynamic) rating as of yesterday. They were both on a team which had played the first two of its ten season matches but they were not DQed for their victories in those matches.

Does anyone have any clarifying information about what might have happened?

Were they playing up as well? I've seen this happen once in our section. Player self-rates at 4.0 and registers at 4.0 and 4.5. Plays first match at 4.0, which is not a strike. Plays next 3 matches at 4.5, which are strikes against 4.0 but not 4.5. Player is bumped to 4.5 and barred from 4.0 matches, but the one 4.0 match is not overturned because it was not a strike. Is this what happened possibly?

beernutz 04-04-2013 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J_R_B (Post 7325799)
Were they playing up as well? I've seen this happen once in our section. Player self-rates at 4.0 and registers at 4.0 and 4.5. Plays first match at 4.0, which is not a strike. Plays next 3 matches at 4.5, which are strikes against 4.0 but not 4.5. Player is bumped to 4.5 and barred from 4.0 matches, but the one 4.0 match is not overturned because it was not a strike. Is this what happened possibly?

No they both self rated in January of this year and each played on two 4.0 teams. The first was an 18+ winter league which is completed and the other is an ongoing 18+ spring league which is ongoing and where they both had played in the first two of the ten matches scheduled for that league. I think one of them won a match and the other won two of those current league matches but they weren't DQed for them. Just seems odd to me so I was wondering if had happened to other players as well.

I tried to find out more about what a (D) Dynamic rating is and the NTRP FAQ on the USTA site says to look in the USTA Regulations Glossary but it isn't described there* and the USTA Regulations themselves don't refer to a (D) rating at all.

*The Glossary entry is: Dynamic Rating: A rating associated with a player who has the potential to change with every match played by the player.

I don't think that is the definition of a D rating though.

beernutz 04-04-2013 08:53 PM

FWIW the USTA Regulations and the Glossary can be found here: http://www.usta.com/Play-Tennis/USTA...n/Regulations/

Steve Huff 04-04-2013 08:57 PM

I've seen it happen before. A guy started the season as a 3.5 legit. He was a good athlete, but wasn't too good at tennis yet. He took lessons and improved quickly, and began winning his matches decisively. The team got into the playoffs. He got bumped up, made ineligible for the playoffs. Kind of sucked if you asked me.

NumbersGuy 04-05-2013 03:31 AM

Post the name and we'll look into it. I don't think any privacy issues are at stake here.

beernutz 04-05-2013 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NumbersGuy (Post 7326071)
Post the name and we'll look into it. I don't think any privacy issues are at stake here.

Let me ask one of them whether they care if I do that or not. How would knowing a name help?

NumbersGuy 04-05-2013 04:54 AM

It lets us look at his match record, look at his rating history, identify any important clues that you may not have identified.

beernutz 04-05-2013 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NumbersGuy (Post 7326147)
It lets us look at his match record, look at his rating history, identify any important clues that you may not have identified.

Ok I will ask one or both of them if they mind me posting their tennislink.

In the meantime, does anyone have any information about what a D rating signifies and how you get one? I know players who are dynamically DQed receive a B rating but this D thing is new to me as these are the first two people I know who actually have one.

schmke 04-05-2013 06:20 AM

Does your section/district perhaps have a local rule that has players being bumped up after 3 strikes but not having their matches turn to DQs?

I have not done a full analysis, but it certainly looks like SB's bump could have been the result of his 2nd Spring match (1 & 2 win). JD's is a bit odd in that it appears he actually self-rated at 3.5, but proceeded to go 8-0 in four 4.0 leagues before losing his last match. But losing a match does not mean a strike can't be generated from it.

But yes, in both cases, the bump would appear to have come after the 2nd Spring league match so I'd think your section has to have a rule that allows for bumps without a DQ, or they are just slow to have the DQ show up in TennisLink.

Was either player contacted to tell them they were bumped up or that they had 3 strikes?

Or, just really speculating here, but perhaps the bump for each happened at the end of the Winter league and is just a mid-season bump at that checkpoint (do you have early start ratings at all?) but it wasn't calculated until the first two Spring matches had been played. So there was no DQ, just a bump that was calculated/notified late.

Cindysphinx 04-05-2013 06:35 AM

I'm very confused.

At what level did they self-rate (3.5? 4.0?) ?

At what level are they now (4.5B?)?

I have never heard of a D rating, and I am pretty sure the only rating types are C, B, A, S, T (I think) and M.

So yeah, I'm confused by your description . . .

One possibility is that these players are ineligible because they violated a local two-player rule.

beernutz 04-05-2013 06:59 AM

Both players self rated in 1/2013 as 4.0S

They both played Winter 4.0 18+, playing about six matches. That season is now over.

They both started playing Spring 4.0 18+ and each played in first two of ten scheduled matches

On 4/3/2013 the captain and both players were notified that the players had been assigned a 4.5 D (Dynamic) rating and were no longer eligible at 4.0. They were not disqualified from their previous matches played.

Cindy, the D rating does exist though I had never heard of it either and like I say below there is almost nothing about it posted on the USTA site I can find, hence this thread. Just go check anyone's NTRP rating in tennislink and you will see D in the ratings key. An odd thing I just noticed is that if you search for the individual names of the players for their NTRP, their rating type shows up as D. However, if you do a drill down search to see all the 4.5s in my area, their ratings are shown as B. More USTA consistency!

To schmke, I don't know that answer but we have had players get DQed here and assigned B ratings. The email supposedly explaining the situation from USTA they received which I have seen was very vague, essentially just telling them to look here for the answer: http://www.usta.com/Play-Tennis/USTA...ation/ratings/

I HAVE read all those links (and also more documents including the USTA Regulations and its Glossary) and do not see where a D rating is explained.

BabblingPsychopath 04-05-2013 07:01 AM

Our team had 2 players bumped yesterday as well, without a DQ, for three strikes rule.

gmatheis 04-05-2013 07:10 AM

Like Cindy I have never heard of a "D" rating but I went and looked up myself to see the listing of rating types and saw this:

Key to Type of Rating
S - Self-rate or Medical Appeal
A - Appeal
B - Benchmark - advanced to playoff or championship round
C - Computer
D - Dynamic
E - Early Start League dynamic
M - Mixed Exclusive Year-end Rating
T - Tournament Exclusive Year End Rating

So it obviously does exist, but I think it may be relatively new.

TO venture a guess I'd say that perhaps your friends results from their matches may not have been enough to generate "strikes" but it may have been enough to push their dynamic ratings (the ones that are calculated to the hundredth of a point) to the next level.

To illustrate ... maybe they self rate at 4.0 , but their matches while not lopsided enough to generate a strike did push their dynamic rating to 4.02

This is just my best guess given the information at hand.

gmatheis 04-05-2013 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BabblingPsychopath (Post 7326332)
Our team had 2 players bumped yesterday as well, without a DQ, for three strikes rule.

Thats odd because three strikes rule IS a DQ .... maybe USTA is fiddling with alternative ways of dealing with all this.

schmke 04-05-2013 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beernutz (Post 7326328)
Short version.
Both players self rated in 1/2013 as 4.0S

They both played Winter 4.0 18+, playing about six matches. that season is now over.

They both started playing Spring 4.0 18+ and each played in first two of ten scheduled matches

On 4/3/2013 the captain and both players were notified that the players had been assigned a D (Dynamic) rating and were no longer eligible at 4.0. They were not disqualified from their previous matches played. Cindy, the D rating does exist though I had never heard of it either and like I say below there is almost nothing about it posted on the USTA site I can find, hence this thread. Just go check anyone's rating in tennislink and you will see D in the ratings key.

To schmke, I don't know that answer but we have had players get DQed here and assigned B ratings. The email supposedly explaining the situation from USTA they received which I have seen was very vague, essentially just telling them to look here for the answer: http://www.usta.com/Play-Tennis/USTA...ation/ratings/

I HAVE read all those links (and also more documents including the USTA Regulations and its Glossary) and do not see where a D rating is explained.

From an NTRP FAQ I've saved:
27. What are the consequences of disqualification?
In all cases, the player is disqualified from participation at that NTRP level. Each USTA Section will determine which of two methods the section will follow at the local and the championship level. The effect on Team Standings may vary, depending on when the DQ occurs: During local league: In all cases, the player is disqualified from participation at that NTRP level. Each USTA Section will determine what matches, if any will be reversed for the local season.
This seems to allow for a DQ at a given level without reversing the matches played at the discretion of the section. So it appears your section doesn't reverse the matches already played and the player is just disqualified from playing 4.0.

As far as a "D" rating, I believe this is just stating that the player has played enough matches to have their dynamic rating calculated. A "C" or "B" only occurs at year-end. Everyone that is playing matches during a year is having their "D" rating calculated on a regular basis.

NumbersGuy 04-05-2013 08:03 AM

A D is what the USTA used to use in TennisLink to signify a DQ, but last year they changed to using a B (multiple examples are out there of DQed players this year sporting a B). I didn't think that D was in use anymore. That's another reason I wanted to know the player's name, so that I could see for myself. I think schmke is probably right, it's probably that the Section chose option B (no match reversals).

beernutz 04-05-2013 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schmke (Post 7326362)
From an NTRP FAQ I've saved:
27. What are the consequences of disqualification?
In all cases, the player is disqualified from participation at that NTRP level. Each USTA Section will determine which of two methods the section will follow at the local and the championship level. The effect on Team Standings may vary, depending on when the DQ occurs: During local league: In all cases, the player is disqualified from participation at that NTRP level. Each USTA Section will determine what matches, if any will be reversed for the local season.
This seems to allow for a DQ at a given level without reversing the matches played at the discretion of the section. So it appears your section doesn't reverse the matches already played and the player is just disqualified from playing 4.0.

As far as a "D" rating, I believe this is just stating that the player has played enough matches to have their dynamic rating calculated. A "C" or "B" only occurs at year-end. Everyone that is playing matches during a year is having their "D" rating calculated on a regular basis.

That isn't quite true here anyway as I know a player who was DQed last year (2012) and was immediately assigned a B rating. This was not at year end. When he was DQed, all his matches played in the current season were reversed.

Now that may have changed this year (2013) and instead of DQing the player based on 3 strikes and assigning them a B rating, they are just assigning them a D and disallowing participation at their previous level but not DQing any matches. I wish I knew more but what I have seen provided by the local and state USTA about this situation is very vague.

You and numbersguy could be correct that a D is essentially the same as the B received through disqualification, except that with a D no matches are reversed. My question would be why are some disqualified players treated one way while others are treated differently? If D means enough matches have been played to determine a dynamic rating, then why aren't all self rated (S) players who have played enough changed to this rating? It appears only those who have played enough (whatever that standard is) and who are being disqualified get a D.

beernutz 04-05-2013 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BabblingPsychopath (Post 7326332)
Our team had 2 players bumped yesterday as well, without a DQ, for three strikes rule.

When you go here http://tennislink.usta.com/Leagues/Common/Default.aspx, and enter their names in Find NTRP Rating Info, what rating type do they have?

schmke 04-05-2013 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beernutz (Post 7326494)
That isn't quite true here anyway as I know a player who was DQed last year (2012) and was immediately assigned a B rating. This was not at year end. When he was DQed, all his matches played in the current season were reversed.

You are right, DQ's becoming an immediate B is one of the exceptions I always forget to note.

Quote:

Now that may have changed this year (2013) and instead of DQing the player based on 3 strikes and assigning them a B rating, they are just assigning them a D and disallowing participation at their previous level but not DQing any matches. I wish I knew more but what I have seen provided by the local and state USTA about this situation is very vague.

You and numbersguy could be correct that a D is essentially the same as the B received through disqualification, except that with a D no matches are reversed. My question would be why are some disqualified players treated one way while others are treated differently? If D means enough matches have been played to determine a dynamic rating, then why aren't all self rated (S) players who have played enough changed to this rating? It appears only those who have played enough (whatever that standard is) and who are being disqualified get a D.
It is probably worth a question to your LLC to see if the rule changed and what it is regarding DQs. Are their results reversed or not? Or are they applying some other rule that does a mid-season bump that isn't a normal DQ?


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