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-   -   constant pull vs lockout (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=460171)

Petrus 04-08-2013 07:43 PM

constant pull vs lockout
 
would you buy a low end constant pull machine like the gamma progress II ELS or a decent lockout like the prince NEOS 1000?

sstchur 04-08-2013 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petrus (Post 7333017)
would you buy a low end constant pull machine like the gamma progress II ELS or a decent lockout like the prince NEOS 1000?

I would go w/ the NEOS if you have the money for it. In fact, in general, I recommend you get the most machine you can afford. I speak from experience, having gone the upgrade path many times.

Swing Hip Hop something or other (drop weight)
Mutual Power Titan (crank)
Gamma 6004 (crank)
Gamma 5800/8800 (electronic cp)

Looking back, honestly I should have just gone right to the top. The enjoyment and "smoothness" in the stringing process was better and better with each upgrade.

I would take crank over drop weight, not because I think crank is better or worse, but because I think it is more enjoyable to use.

Similarly, I would take electronic over crank, not because I think electronic is better, but because I find it more enjoyable to use.

Get the most machine you can afford. You'll be happy you did.

zapvor 04-08-2013 08:28 PM

listen to sstchur.

roman40 04-08-2013 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sstchur (Post 7333078)
...
Looking back, honestly I should have just gone right to the top. The enjoyment and "smoothness" in the stringing process was better and better with each upgrade.

I would take crank over drop weight, not because I think crank is better or worse, but because I think it is more enjoyable to use.

Similarly, I would take electronic over crank, not because I think electronic is better, but because I find it more enjoyable to use.

Get the most machine you can afford. You'll be happy you did.

The reason you appreciate a better machine, the reason you enjoy it more, is that you used worse machines at some point. I think it's better to upgrade, because that process is more enjoyable than stringing itself (for most people), so why cheat yourself out of it.

sstchur 04-08-2013 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roman40 (Post 7333125)
The reason you appreciate a better machine, the reason you enjoy it more, is that you used worse machines at some point. I think it's better to upgrade, because that process is more enjoyable than stringing itself (for most people), so why cheat yourself out of it.

Well, my point (though I didn't come out and say it very well, or perhaps even at all) was that I would have spent a lot less in the long run if I had just gotten the high-end machine to begin with.

And the upgrade process, save for the moment of excitement you get when you buy and first open a new machine, wasn't really worth it, I don't think.

I enjoyed stringing almost from the beginning (was a little frustrating in the very very beginning, but I quickly got into a groove and liked it) but almost immediately sensed that I would enjoy it more with a better machine. My upgrade path was a bit of a learning process. I didn't really know what features were important to me, b/c at the start, I didn't really understand what various features would offer me (or how they would make the process more enjoyable). It was upon upgrading that I learned that.

But if I had it to do over again, I'd go right for the best machine I could afford, and I'd advise others to do the same. I'm pretty sure anyone who does will not be disappointed.

Rabbit 04-09-2013 03:24 AM

One more in agreement with sstchur. I have never had one second of buyer's remorse with my Neos.

Petrus 04-09-2013 04:13 AM

thanks for all the replies so far

the gamma progressive ELS is about the same price as the neos 1000.
the gamma is constant pull electric but sort of entry level
the neos is a great lockout machine.

which one would you prefer? with both machines being same price but different design

GlenK 04-09-2013 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sstchur (Post 7333078)
I would go w/ the NEOS if you have the money for it. In fact, in general, I recommend you get the most machine you can afford. I speak from experience, having gone the upgrade path many times.

Swing Hip Hop something or other (drop weight)
Mutual Power Titan (crank)
Gamma 6004 (crank)
Gamma 5800/8800 (electronic cp)

Looking back, honestly I should have just gone right to the top. The enjoyment and "smoothness" in the stringing process was better and better with each upgrade.

I would take crank over drop weight, not because I think crank is better or worse, but because I think it is more enjoyable to use.

Similarly, I would take electronic over crank, not because I think electronic is better, but because I find it more enjoyable to use.

Get the most machine you can afford. You'll be happy you did.

Sound advice!!

coolblue123 04-09-2013 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sstchur (Post 7333078)
I would go w/ the NEOS if you have the money for it. In fact, in general, I recommend you get the most machine you can afford. I speak from experience, having gone the upgrade path many times.

Swing Hip Hop something or other (drop weight)
Mutual Power Titan (crank)
Gamma 6004 (crank)
Gamma 5800/8800 (electronic cp)

Looking back, honestly I should have just gone right to the top. The enjoyment and "smoothness" in the stringing process was better and better with each upgrade.

I would take crank over drop weight, not because I think crank is better or worse, but because I think it is more enjoyable to use.

Similarly, I would take electronic over crank, not because I think electronic is better, but because I find it more enjoyable to use.

Get the most machine you can afford. You'll be happy you did.

I am using a SP Hip Hop at home now. No regrets at all. Very easy to use and them fixed clamps are very stable.

anubis 04-09-2013 05:22 AM

I have an older machine, but it was never meant to be an "entry level" machine, and I love it. It's a crank/LO. It's just like a neos, it's a Gamma 4000. "professional" machines just give you so much more accuracy.

I've strung about a dozen racquets so far on it, and all of my string jobs are WAY more consistent than they ever were on an entry level drop weight machine.

I'm not saying they're "perfect" string jobs, there's definitely flaws in my technique. I always tend to lose some tension on a few particular pulls on the mains -- but the point is, with a consistent machine, my jobs are consistent, so I have the same tension loss on all my racquets. This means that all the frames in my bag feel the same, work the same, and react the same. It increases predictability on the court.

I think its a lot harder to remain very consistent with entry level, budget grade machines. you can still certainly string them fine, but if you string 5 racquets in a row, all with the same tension and strings/frames, how consistent will they be?

Irvin 04-09-2013 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petrus (Post 7333417)
thanks for all the replies so far

the gamma progressive ELS is about the same price as the neos 1000.
the gamma is constant pull electric but sort of entry level
the neos is a great lockout machine.

which one would you prefer? with both machines being same price but different design

What machine everyone likes should not be your determining factor. Both are good machines and have good support. The big difference between these two machines are:

2 point versus 6 point - I prefer the 6 PT and with the newer C side supports the side supports will be much less easier to get around. Because the ELS does not have a self centering turntable or a single adjustment for the side supports the Prince will be a little faster for mounting.

Table top versus stand up - the stand makes the Prince more ergonomic

Crank versus electronic constant pull - there are loads of threads talking about this but many don't really understand how a crank works and how good they really are.

Swivel clamps versus glide bars - if you plan to do one piece or ATW patterns I would go with the swivel clamps. Using glide bar clamps makes it a little more troublesome to transition from mains to crosses and vice versa.

Rabbit 04-09-2013 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irvin (Post 7333508)
What machine everyone likes should not be your determining factor. Both are good machines and have good support. The big difference between these two machines are:

2 point versus 6 point - I prefer the 6 PT and with the newer C side supports the side supports will be much less easier to get around. Because the ELS does not have a self centering turntable or a single adjustment for the side supports the Prince will be a little faster for mounting.

Table top versus stand up - the stand makes the Prince more ergonomic

Crank versus electronic constant pull - there are loads of threads talking about this but many don't really understand how a crank works and how good they really are.

Swivel clamps versus glide bars - if you plan to do one piece or ATW patterns I would go with the swivel clamps. Using glide bar clamps makes it a little more troublesome to transition from mains to crosses and vice versa.

Counterpoint -

Sounds like you are giving your likes which is contradictory ;)

I don't like six point mounts. I have never had nor heard of anyone properly mounting a racquet on a Neos and having problems or hurting the frame.

I think I would like double action clamps, but truthfully, I don't see where single action (glide bar) are in any way deficient for ATW patterns. Fan patterns, yes, but you do get a set of floating clamps for the few you do.

struggle 04-09-2013 06:05 AM

glide bars are fine, but to be honest i don't understand why the NEOS 1000 is still being sold new, as all others have gone to double action clamps for the most part.

is it just surplus?

is it to fill the niche of those who still like glide bars better?
(and i do understand the merits having used them in the past, i've just grown to like the dual type better....i like 6 pt too)

or........are they trying to compete with eagnas?? haha ;)

max 04-09-2013 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabbit (Post 7333379)
One more in agreement with sstchur. I have never had one second of buyer's remorse with my Neos.

Interesting. I just wish I had the volume to require a Neos. :)

Irvin 04-09-2013 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petrus (Post 7333417)
thanks for all the replies so far

the gamma progressive ELS is about the same price as the neos 1000.
the gamma is constant pull electric but sort of entry level
the neos is a great lockout machine.

which one would you prefer? with both machines being same price but different design

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabbit (Post 7333518)
Counterpoint -Sounds like you are giving your likes which is contradictory ;)

My bad I thought that is what the OP asked for. I also wanted to also offer my reasons for my choice.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabbit (Post 7333518)
I don't like six point mounts. I have never had nor heard of anyone properly mounting a racquet on a Neos and having problems or hurting the frame.

And you think I said a properly mounted frame on any specific stringer would hurt the frame?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabbit (Post 7333518)
I think I would like double action clamps, but truthfully, I don't see where single action (glide bar) are in any way deficient for ATW patterns.

That would depend on the ATW (or box) pattern being used. Or are you assuming also that everyone uses the same ATW pattern you do?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabbit (Post 7333518)
Fan patterns, yes, but you do get a set of floating clamps for the few you do.

Good idea let's add more accessories into the mix you may need with a glide bar machine.

sstchur 04-09-2013 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolblue123 (Post 7333464)
I am using a SP Hip Hop at home now. No regrets at all. Very easy to use and them fixed clamps are very stable.

Ah, this has jogged my memory! My first was not a Hip Hop. You're right; the HH has fixed clamps. Mine was an SP Swing, which was floating clamps.

sstchur 04-09-2013 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petrus (Post 7333417)
thanks for all the replies so far

the gamma progressive ELS is about the same price as the neos 1000.
the gamma is constant pull electric but sort of entry level
the neos is a great lockout machine.

which one would you prefer? with both machines being same price but different design

This is a tough one, IMO. I really like and have been very happy with Gamma machines. However, the Progression ELS is a 6pt mount and the NEOS is a 2pt. In THIS PARTICULAR case, I give the edge to the NEOS.

I like 2pt personally (I have a Gamma 2pt and have owned Gamma 6pt). I don't necessarily consider one better than the other, but 2pt definitely does "stay out of the way" more, which is really nice.

But for me, the clincher in this case isn't the number of points, but it is that the Gamma Progression ELS is a 6pt NON self centering 6pt, and it has INDIVIDUAL knobs for each of the arms. I find this to be a little tedious and somewhat annoying, which is why I (personally) would prefer the NEOS mounting system, I think.

Now if it were between the mount system of say a Gamma 6004 6pt SC vs a NEOS, then I'd be much less inclined to recommend the NEOS and would encourage a strong hard look at the 6004. The 6004 SC mount system is just wonderful. Super quick and easy and really nice to use.

What sort of budget are you on again?

Irvin 04-09-2013 09:34 AM

sstchur not to disagree with you but you or I have different concepts of what self-centering is (I think.) As I understand it with self centering the center of the racket from head to throat is always centered on the string bed, not left to right. With self centering the distance from the pivot point on the turn table to the top and bottom of the frame is always exactly the same every time you mount a racket no matter what racket you mount. Without self centering the distance from the bottom and or top support can be adjusted individually.

Sounds like you are saying the outside supports (with one adjustment) centers the racket which is self centering. You could have individual adjustments for both the top and bottom and or side supports. One is self centering one is not.

What you are saying (in other words) is it is impossible to have self centering on a two point machine . There a couple of (and this one) 2 pt point self centering machines[/url] offered by Gamma that I would prefer over the NEOS just because of self centering feature.

EDIT; Now does self centering matter? I think so because if the racket is always centered so the angle to the tensioner (from the frame) is always the same. If the angle is the same the friction is the same for a given tension / racket. If the friction remains the same the tension remains the same instead of varying from racket to racket you will have a consistent string bed.

cluckcluck 04-09-2013 10:09 AM

Just buy a Stringway ML100, floating or fixed clamps. You'll have extremely consistent stringbeds every time.

Rabbit 04-09-2013 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irvin (Post 7333949)
EDIT; Now does self centering matter? I think so because if the racket is always centered so the angle to the tensioner (from the frame) is always the same. If the angle is the same the friction is the same for a given tension / racket. If the friction remains the same the tension remains the same instead of varying from racket to racket you will have a consistent string bed.

I'll play irvin's advocate here....

for the same frame model, the angle is accurate on a Neos and therefore consistent.

even between frames, the difference is so minuscule as not to matter or be detectable.


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