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-   -   We Need A Stiffer Penalty (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=460222)

Cindysphinx 04-09-2013 10:26 AM

We Need A Stiffer Penalty
 
Played a doubles match today. One opponent had big groundstrokes. She parked at the baseline the whole match, hitting beautiful passing shots if you displayed the poor judgment to come to net.

To counter this, my partner and I would feed her massive topspin moonballs to back her up, hoping to get something weak that we could exploit.

So far, so good.

Not once but *twice* her partner at net turned around and confidently called these topspin balls out. Both times, her very honest partner called them in and awarded us the point.

This has got to stop.

The world is filled with net players who looooove to call close balls on the baseline. As a moonballer, I am sick to death of putting all kinds of topspin on the ball, moving in behind it (so I have the same view of the baseline as the net player), watching it dive near the line, and having the net player chirp "Out!"

That the baseline players are sometimes overruling their partners proves that these net players should *stop* making that call. The net player is far away and is looking across the line rather than down it. No way is she seeing space between the ball and the line. Nope, she is wishing the ball out when her partner is standing *right there.*

Come on, folks. If you are at net and your partner is right there at the baseline, let her call those moonballs.

'Cause most of them are *in!*

spot 04-09-2013 10:29 AM

This has to be solved by the baseline player getting a bit irritated with the net player and telling them that by calling it out when it hit the line that it cost the team any chance of winning the point. It has to be the teammate that corrects the behavior moving forward.

LuckyR 04-09-2013 11:26 AM

Actually the OP is confusing two separate issues.

First, the particular individuals involved in this particular match like to "wish" the ball out and are perhaps cheaters. Perhaps Cindy is getting so much topspin on the ball that the inflight trajectory looks out in midair and dives down at the last second to touch the line.

As to the geometry of line calling, the netman actually has an unobstructed view of court between the ball and the line. The baseline player's view of this is often blocked by the ball itself. Not to mention that the baseline player is trying to actually hit the ball and that the ball is moving across their field of vision rapidly, neither are a problem for the netman looking back.

OrangePower 04-09-2013 11:29 AM

I can see it being a little irritating, but the penalty seems correct - immediate loss of point. Think of it this way: had the net person not made an incorrect out call, the baseline player would have had a play on the ball - you may have ended up winning the point anyway, but no guarantee. But this way, the point is yours there and then.

Perhaps instead of a stiffer penalty, today is one of those days where you need a stiffer drink after the match :-)

OnyxZ28 04-09-2013 11:36 AM

^^ Hear hear, I was going to say the same thing as OrangePower.

Cindysphinx 04-09-2013 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyR (Post 7334193)

As to the geometry of line calling, the netman actually has an unobstructed view of court between the ball and the line. The baseline player's view of this is often blocked by the ball itself. Not to mention that the baseline player is trying to actually hit the ball and that the ball is moving across their field of vision rapidly, neither are a problem for the netman looking back.

This is why we are winding up in the weeds.

Players are not supposed to call balls out unless they are 100% sure it was 100% out. If you are at net judging a topspin moonball that strikes near the baseline, you do not have a good view of that ball. Period. You should not make any call unless the ball is clearly and totally out -- which we know it was not because of the overrule.

See, that's the problem. Everybody thinks they should be doing geometry: "Yeah, I'm 60 feet away from the ball and looking over my shoulder, but my partner is blocked by the ball and is pinwheeling her arms and staring into the sun, so I'll make a call." No. No, no, no. If you are not looking down that baseline -- either because you are at net or because you are at the back fence -- you have a poor vantage point and should just *play those close balls as in*, even if they might have been out.

Yeah, in this case the baseliner (a friend who would never cheat) overruled her partner. But how many threads have we had where posters come right out and say they would never, ever overrule a partner?

I'm getting hooked by people in bad position to make calls, and I'm getting tired of it.

sureshs 04-09-2013 02:01 PM

Cindy chooses thread titles with a lot of mischief

skiracer55 04-09-2013 02:13 PM

Okay, consider this...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 7334502)
This is why we are winding up in the weeds.

Players are not supposed to call balls out unless they are 100% sure it was 100% out. If you are at net judging a topspin moonball that strikes near the baseline, you do not have a good view of that ball. Period. You should not make any call unless the ball is clearly and totally out -- which we know it was not because of the overrule.

See, that's the problem. Everybody thinks they should be doing geometry: "Yeah, I'm 60 feet away from the ball and looking over my shoulder, but my partner is blocked by the ball and is pinwheeling her arms and staring into the sun, so I'll make a call." No. No, no, no. If you are not looking down that baseline -- either because you are at net or because you are at the back fence -- you have a poor vantage point and should just *play those close balls as in*, even if they might have been out.

Yeah, in this case the baseliner (a friend who would never cheat) overruled her partner. But how many threads have we had where posters come right out and say they would never, ever overrule a partner?

I'm getting hooked by people in bad position to make calls, and I'm getting tired of it.

- What does "100% sure" mean? A player can be 100% sure, but still be wrong.

- This kind of stuff happens all the time at levels other than NTRP...for example, college tennis where players call their own lines but there's an umpire to overrule and/or arbitrate disputes over calls. You can say that this is an error-prone method, and you'd be right, but there ain't gonna be no Hawkeye, any time soon, in NTRP or most college matches. What a good umpire can do is overrule clearly bad calls and, more important, deal effectively with disputes over calls...it's no longer in the hands of the players, just a neutral 3rd party.

- The gist of what you're saying is correct, and it's probably somewhere in the code. If you're playing doubles, the usual pro forma on serves is that the returner calls the serve...but if the receiver's partner, who is often in a better position to call the shot, sees it differently, then the server's partner should overrule. That's kind of the meat of what you're getting at, which is the team, as a team, makes the best call possible, and then either one can overrule a bad call...for example, and I've done this...I call a serve out, it's an ace if it's in, I realize it was a good serve, so I say "I'm sorry...serve was in, your point."

Are you going to get most NTRPers to even know this concept, let alone make it happen in practice? I doubt it, which is yet one of the many reasons I don't play NTRP...but your mileage may vary...

Maui19 04-09-2013 02:28 PM

I play on clay, so take that into consideration. Personally, I have a very difficult time calling the baseline on heavy shots that are landing near the baseline. My partner has a great view of any mark, and I welcome their help.

BTW, wouldn't the net player be much closer to the play than the opposing player who hit the groundstroke and is SURE the ball is in?

I'm just sayin'

Cindysphinx 04-09-2013 02:35 PM

Not if you follow that aggressive ball to net, which I do.

Mike Y 04-09-2013 03:02 PM

On a deep ball to your partner the net person should be backing up to around the service line so they can be in a better position to play the next ball if it happens to be a volley by the other team at the net. If the net person is at the service line, they should have a fairly good view of the ball around the baseline, in fact probably a better view than the person at the baseline, especially if the person at the baseline is hitting the ball on the rise.

But of course you should only make that call if you are sure of it.

Relinquis 04-09-2013 03:05 PM

get umpires...

played doubles today, one of the guys kept calling the ball before it even hit the ground... i told him to stop doing it because it was disruptive to play. he stopped. all was good.

got one of our friends who was hanging out with us, not playing, to be an umpire. even when she left after a set, players were much more mature about the calls.

some people cheat though. i find getting into a massive argument with them useful (only after persistent cheating), but it doesn't phase my tennis. it usually sours the atmosphere though, but cheater hate being called out and still getting beaten (i.e. when it doesn't work as gamesmenship).

sorry for the rant...

Cindysphinx 04-09-2013 03:50 PM

A pox on all your houses.

Maui19 04-09-2013 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 7334571)
Not if you follow that aggressive ball to net, which I do.

Oh so you are running full speed from further away and you still get a better look. Ok. :)

skiracer55 04-09-2013 04:38 PM

Let's try this one more time...
 
...I understand where you're coming from, Cindy, but consider the following:

- You are basically talking woulda, coulda, shoulda, and, fortunately or unfortunately, the world of tennis...and the larger world as well...does not work that way. Yes, it's true...the people you are playing against should know how to fairly and effectively call lines as you do...but they don't. Most of the time, if you're getting hooked, the hookies aren't doing it on purpose...they just don't know any better.

Just like they don't know any better when it comes to the larger game of tennis. This isn't a TW rant, it comes from Personal Experience. I play a lot of tennis, and on the weekends, the adjoining courts are filled to overflowing with women's 3.0-3.5 league matches. Almost invariably, they all look the same:

- All 4 players are serving with a SW forehand grip.

- The server's partner never moves, ever, except when the ball comes directly to her, in which case it's usually a shank, because she is hitting the volley with the (ahem) SW forehand grip.

- A corollary to this is that it's not really doubles, it's 4 players playing singles on a doubles court. To whit: the server serves, the returner returns...to the server, of course, the two net players stand their like Greek statues...and eventually, either the server or the returner misses.

- Nobody has a clue as to how to call lines. I'll go you one better, most of the time, the four players can't remember the point or game score, and none of them, because they've never done so, have the slightest idea of how to line up and play a tie-breaker.

However...and I admit I've been pretty harsh about the entertainment value of NTRP tennis...lately I've been seeing four women, despite their peccadillos and faux pas...having a lot of fun out there. The sun's out, they've got a new can of balls and fresh strings, and they're temporarily relieved from all of the onerous responsibilities of life, wifehood, and motherhood, and they're having one whale of a time with their friends. If somebody shanks a lob over the fence, everybody laughs, and the beat goes on. They're having a great time playing the game of tennis...whereas you, on the other hand, are obsessed with the vision of what NTRP tennis should be.

Which is fine. Obsession can be a useful thing, in, say, another form of endeavor such as the fine arts. Ernest Hemingway was demonstrably obsessed, but he did write The Sun Also Rises, among other things. Gaugin was definitely a few sandwiches short of a full picnic, but he did paint Starry Night, among other things.

Obsession, however, has it's price, and it comes in two general varieties:

- What happens to your life when you don't achieve your obsession.

- What happens to your life if you do achieve your obsession.

Which was it for Hemingway and Gaugin? Hard to tell, but the results are clear: Gaugin cut off his ear, among other things, and Hemingway stuck a shotgun in his mouth and pulled the trigger with his toe.

But that's actually way, way out there and probably doesn't pertain to any of us or this discussion. Instead, look at it this way: I violently agree with you, you're right, and your NTRP opponents ought to call lines, among other things, in a much more elevated fashion. Because they probably won't, pursuant to the above discussion, what are you to do? Well, the next time the netplayer on the opposing team makes an optimistic, too early out line call, instead of venting on TW, which won't change the situation, tell them, not us.

You don't want to do that, for whatever reason? Fine, then shut up and play tennis...

LuckyR 04-09-2013 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 7334502)
This is why we are winding up in the weeds.

Players are not supposed to call balls out unless they are 100% sure it was 100% out. If you are at net judging a topspin moonball that strikes near the baseline, you do not have a good view of that ball. Period. You should not make any call unless the ball is clearly and totally out -- which we know it was not because of the overrule.

See, that's the problem. Everybody thinks they should be doing geometry: "Yeah, I'm 60 feet away from the ball and looking over my shoulder, but my partner is blocked by the ball and is pinwheeling her arms and staring into the sun, so I'll make a call." No. No, no, no. If you are not looking down that baseline -- either because you are at net or because you are at the back fence -- you have a poor vantage point and should just *play those close balls as in*, even if they might have been out.

Yeah, in this case the baseliner (a friend who would never cheat) overruled her partner. But how many threads have we had where posters come right out and say they would never, ever overrule a partner?

I'm getting hooked by people in bad position to make calls, and I'm getting tired of it.



A couple of things:

Everyone is in agreement that you should not call a ball out unless it is 100% out. We also agree that this particular individual in this particular example didn't and as I posted, they may be an outright cheater.

The above of course, has no bearing on the original topic, it is just a side show. The reality is that every single day, netmen call baseline shots routinely and accurately. My guess is every poster in this thread has done so on numerous occasions.

60 feet? Where I play, the service line is 18 feet from the baseline...

I know you are NOT saying that players should not call close balls on lines where they can't observe along the line and have to make the call across the line. Face it, if such a practice was commonplace the game of singles could not take place (since serves could not be called long).

OrangePower 04-09-2013 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skiracer55 (Post 7334785)
Gaugin cut off his ear

I think you're confusing Gauguin with Van Gogh. Latter dude had the ear mishap. More common theory is that he cut it off himself in a fit of depression. However there is an alternate theory that it was cut off in a fight with his sometime-friend, you guessed it, Gauguin. In either case it is not disputed that Gauguin kept both his ears intact until his death. Although he too suffered from clinical despression as did Van Gogh.

All part of the price of artistic genius.

OrangePower 04-09-2013 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skiracer55 (Post 7334785)
I violently agree with you, you're right, and your NTRP opponents ought to call lines, among other things, in a much more elevated fashion. Because they probably won't, pursuant to the above discussion, what are you to do?

Clearly, there is only one thing to do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekQ_Ja02gTY

sureshs 04-09-2013 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangePower (Post 7334821)
I think you're confusing Gauguin with Van Gogh. Latter dude had the ear mishap. More common theory is that he cut it off himself in a fit of depression. However there is an alternate theory that it was cut off in a fight with his sometime-friend, you guessed it, Gauguin. In either case it is not disputed that Gauguin kept both his ears intact until his death. Although he too suffered from clinical despression as did Van Gogh.

All part of the price of artistic genius.

So "Gaugin cut off his ear" maybe correct if he = Gogh hehehe.

All these painters and their paintings seem the same to me hehehe.

roman40 04-10-2013 01:59 AM

Your opponent at the net is still closer to the ball than you, so I think you're arguing against yourself :)


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