Talk Tennis

Talk Tennis (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php)
-   Former Pro Player Talk (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=37)
-   -   Would Seles have won more slams than Graf if not for the stabbing? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=460859)

tenniswriter 04-16-2013 03:29 AM

Would Seles have won more slams than Graf if not for the stabbing?
 
Open question

6-1 6-3 6-0 04-16-2013 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenniswriter (Post 7346359)
If she wasn't out from 1993 to 1995, that's a total of 10 slams she missed(taking out the 93 aus open and 95 us open). The form she was in, she could have easily won 6-7/10 which would have given her 15 slams or so. Plus, the injury affected her a lot which meant she wasn't as good as she was when she left.

So? Nadal has had to deal with injuries throughout his whole career, yet he is STILL the favourite for Roland Garros and among the favourites to win every slam. If Seles worked as hard as Nadal, she'd be able to say the same thing, but she didn't, so she can't. :-P

veroniquem 04-16-2013 03:46 AM

Of course she would have (won more slams, not necessarily more than Graf). Seles stabbing is the worst thing that's ever happened in tennis: the most absurd and the most tragic. It was traumatic and not just for Seles. I always worry about a repeat.

DropShotArtist 04-16-2013 05:25 AM

Would have been a lot closer between Graf and Seles, that's for sure. Already quite amazing that she had 8 by the time she was 20.

THUNDERVOLLEY 04-16-2013 06:19 AM

OP: This question comes up often, but Seles' "Kryptonite" was Wimbledon, and before anyone posts it, getting to a Wimbledon final does not always mean you are equppied to win it one day. That is the significant difference, a difference others majors winners such as:

Lendl (2 W finals, no title)
Rafter (2 W finals, no title)
Henin (2 W finals, no title)
Roddick (3 W finals, no title)
Sanchez Vicario (2 W finals, no title)

...can all swear to.

I cannot say Seles was better equipped than the members of this Wimbledon-free group to ever win the title, considering the scoreline of her lone W final (2-6, 1-6 to Graf), which did not suggest any particular edge on the surface.

So, if we remove Wimbledon from the discussion, how would she fare against the majors winners sans the stabbing? Would others simply "get her number" (eventually) and stop her from being dominant everywhere else? Would they roll over and take a beating? Would a still-active Seles fuel the competitive fire in Graf to play better than before (if thatr is possible for such a high level)? Who knows, but the big W is one major I do not see Seles adding to her collection of titles.

Fiji 04-16-2013 06:23 AM

Could have been close. Like Navratilova and Evert both ended up with 18 majors.

sunof tennis 04-16-2013 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6-1 6-3 6-0 (Post 7346353)
Seles was stabbed in April 1993 and WON her first comeback in August 1995, and won a slam in 1996. She didn't win a slam afterwards because she just wasn't good enough. Whereas Nadal has won the Brasil Open, Acapulco, AND Indian Wells, AND made the final of Vina del Mar, and is the favourite for every clay-court tournament he enters, including Roland Garros. Nadal was able to come back and will be more successful than Seles. So the reason Seles couldn't win more slams is because she wasn't as motivated/determined as Nadal was. :-P

What a pathetic post. Only you could turn a inquiry about women's tennis into something about Nadal. Wait, do you know something about Nadal's sexual identity that we don't?

Mustard 04-16-2013 06:34 AM

Seles lived and breathed tennis from her childhood up to when she was dominating the game. Seles was a different person with a different mentality after the stabbing, much more serious and philosophical. I believe a main part of her dominance before the stabbing was the enthusiasm that she had for the game, enjoying all of the challenges etc. After her return, she only had this sporadically, had fitness problems most of the time and her on-court mentality was more unpredictable.

adil1972 04-16-2013 06:40 AM

seles and graf would have ended up with same number of slams like evert and martina

Mustard 04-16-2013 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THUNDERVOLLEY (Post 7346607)
Who knows, but the big W is one major I do not see Seles adding to her collection of titles.

It was seen as only a matter of time before the stabbing. Don't be fooled by the scoreline of the 1992 Wimbledon final, as that just showed factors like Seles not grunting and dealing very badly with the rain delays in the second set, while Graf did everything correct. The final was a dud as a spectacle. Seles would have learned from it.

mistik 04-16-2013 06:48 AM

I think she would have won more than 9 thats for sure,probably she would win 15 or 16 major titles.I dont think she would win more than Graf.I think Graf would probably end with 15 or 16 slams as well.I think Seles by no means what Nadal to Fed as well.This is a bit exaggerated by Seles fans.She never showed promising stuff on grass that she can cause Steffi serious problems.İt was Steffi who was so close to beating Seles in 92 RG.

DropShotArtist 04-16-2013 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustard (Post 7346645)
It was seen as only a matter of time before the stabbing. Don't be fooled by the scoreline of the 1992 Wimbledon final, as that just showed factors like Seles not grunting and dealing very badly with the rain delays in the second set, while Graf did everything correct. The final was a dud as a spectacle. Seles would have learned from it.

Had Graf been stabbed at a similar point in her career in terms of number of times playing at Wimbledon, she also would have left the game with 0 Wimbledon titles to her name.

Brian11785 04-16-2013 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustard (Post 7346637)
Seles lived and breathed tennis from her childhood up to when she was dominating the game. Seles was a different person with a different mentality after the stabbing, much more serious and philosophical. I believe a main part of her dominance before the stabbing was the enthusiasm that she had for the game, enjoying all of the challenges etc. After her return, she only had this sporadically, had fitness problems most of the time and her on-court mentality was more unpredictable.

This is all right on the nose, but I think she still would have won a few more 97-02 (1 to 2 a year maybe), if not for the depth and competitiveness of the field. What a great time for women's tennis.

The-Champ 04-16-2013 08:08 AM

Without the stabbing, Monica would be sitting here with 22 majors, not fraulein nose.

veroniquem 04-16-2013 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustard (Post 7346637)
Seles lived and breathed tennis from her childhood up to when she was dominating the game. Seles was a different person with a different mentality after the stabbing, much more serious and philosophical. I believe a main part of her dominance before the stabbing was the enthusiasm that she had for the game, enjoying all of the challenges etc. After her return, she only had this sporadically, had fitness problems most of the time and her on-court mentality was more unpredictable.

Very true. And I assume her father's cancer in 1996 didn't help either.

tennisjon 04-16-2013 09:25 AM

For sure Seles would have had more majors. More than Graf? I don't think so. Graf lead their head-to-head and was getting closer to beating Seles in the big tournaments too. Seles may have won Wimbledon at some point, but its hard to tell. Graf's career ended somewhat early. Would she have continued if Seles had been able to keep up over those years? Would the pace of the game which started to take off during the time Seles was away have made it harder for the less athletic Seles to step into the court to take the ball early? Graf's athleticism certainly translates better to the modern game. I would say Graf would have had about 4 less majors and Seles probably 6 more.

spinovic 04-16-2013 09:33 AM

Let's see, Graf won her first at Roland Garros in 1987. She had won 8 of the last 9 slams before Seles won her first at Roland Garros in 1990. From that point, until the stabbing (12 slams), Seles won 8 while Graf won 2 Wimbledons. After the stabbing, Graf won the next 4 slams and 10 of the next 15.

At the time of the stabbing, Graf was ahead 11-8. Concede the point that Monica would never win Wimbledon (which is highly unlikely, IMO) and give Graf her Wimbledon titles and Seles would have still blow past year. Because, in conceding that, you also have to concede that Seles would have won every non-grass major, especially the ones that Graf won because Seles proved she owned her at the majors on the clay and hard courts. At the very least, she gets the other 8 majors that Graf won outside of Wimbledon.

By the end of '93 it would have been 12-10 Graf. 13-12 Seles by '94. 16-13 by '95. 19-14 by '96. If you only give her the ones Graf won in '95 and '96 it would be 17-14 at that point.

Any way you look at it, you almost have to suspend belief in reality to think Seles would not have surpassed her.

Graf may be my favorite women's player ever, and was certainly my favorite in that era. I couldn't stand Monica Seles out there grunting and screaming and beating my favorite player. I can be more objective now that I'm older and it seems fairly obvious now. In the past, I was in denial.

mistik 04-16-2013 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spinovic (Post 7347051)
Let's see, Graf won her first at Roland Garros in 1987. She had won 8 of the last 9 slams before Seles won her first at Roland Garros in 1990. From that point, until the stabbing (12 slams), Seles won 8 while Graf won 2 Wimbledons. After the stabbing, Graf won the next 4 slams and 10 of the next 15.

At the time of the stabbing, Graf was ahead 11-8. Concede the point that Monica would never win Wimbledon (which is highly unlikely, IMO) and give Graf her Wimbledon titles and Seles would have still blow past year. Because, in conceding that, you also have to concede that Seles would have won every non-grass major, especially the ones that Graf won because Seles proved she owned her at the majors on the clay and hard courts. At the very least, she gets the other 8 majors that Graf won outside of Wimbledon.

By the end of '93 it would have been 12-10 Graf. 13-12 Seles by '94. 16-13 by '95. 19-14 by '96. If you only give her the ones Graf won in '95 and '96 it would be 17-14 at that point.

Any way you look at it, you almost have to suspend belief in reality to think Seles would not have surpassed her.

Graf may be my favorite women's player ever, and was certainly my favorite in that era. I couldn't stand Monica Seles out there grunting and screaming and beating my favorite player. I can be more objective now that I'm older and it seems fairly obvious now. In the past, I was in denial.

:):):) since when Monica is favorite against graf on a fast hard court surfaces like US. As far as ı know she never beaten graf on a fast hard court.

spinovic 04-16-2013 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistik (Post 7347062)
:):):) since when Monica is favorite against graf on a fast hard court surfaces like US. As far as ı know she never beaten graf on a fast hard court.

From Seles' first slam win to the stabbing, she won 2 of 3 US Opens. Graf won 0. That's why. It matters little to me that she didn't beat Graf in those finals, because all that says is that Graf wasn't good enough to get to Seles on the "fast" hard court surface.

NadalAgassi 04-16-2013 10:34 AM

I doubt it. I suspect Graf's final total would have been around 20 (8 slams from 93-96, and 1 in 99) and Seles around 15 (6 slams from 93-96 and 2 sometime in 97-98 ). Graf would also still have her atleast 4 slams at each venue record IMO, which is really her main claim to being the GOAT, along with the Golden Slam, and 8 year end #1s. I still think Graf is overrated by some and the real GOAT is Serena, not Graf.

As for winning Wimbledon, I think it is possible Seles would have managed 1 Wimbledon in some really weak year (say maybe 1994). Basically 55% of never winning it, 40% of winning it 1 time only, and 5% chance of winning it more than once.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:29 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006 - Tennis Warehouse