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-   -   anyone tried the 11 to 5 "Rafter kicker"? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=461208)

Rozroz 04-20-2013 02:39 AM

anyone tried the 11 to 4 "Rafter kicker"?
 
i just saw this FYB new video with Rafter.
i needed some new ideas for a safe & effective 1st, cause my flats % is low, and my serve generally hasn't got much speed.
so i tried to improvise in mid match with this "11 to 5 sort of a kick serve".
i probably didn't succeed much but still managed to put some different spin on the ball cause my opponent had at least 6-7 missed hits (totally out).
for a first try i'm pleased ;)
anyone else using it?

Ducker 04-20-2013 09:58 AM

you mean 5 to 11?

Ash_Smith 04-20-2013 10:02 AM

^^^i sure hope so :D

Cheetah 04-20-2013 10:12 AM

No, he means 11-5.
Watch the will/rafter video. Will does clear it up mid-vid though.

sureshs 04-20-2013 10:20 AM

This is what I was talking about in the other thread:

I watched the first of a series of serve videos today. It was sent to me from FYB for free, and what Will has done is to get Pat Rafter to demonstrate how he serves and what is in his head and how the serve feels to him. If he wants to carve a slice, he visualizes an exaggerated carving, though the dwell time does not really allow that. If the toss is not perfect, he makes micro adjustments to his motion to compensate. He basically uses the second serve for both serves. He strives to make the returner hit "outside the stencil," meaning not on the sweetzone, by making the ball spin and move in such a away that it is always eluding the racket.

Will intervenes from time to time to make a point.

sureshs 04-20-2013 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith (Post 7356241)
^^^i sure hope so :D

http://www.patrafterserve.com/fe/464...in-it-with-pat

(around 7:22. If you cannot access it, Will might be able to help you)

No, he means 11 to 4.

He uses 11-4 for first serve (probably what we would call a top-slice), and 10-2 for a second serve.

This goes way back to the days in which I pioneered the idea that many first serves were hit down. I had explained that top spin can be generated in two ways: hitting up from the "front" side or hitting down from the "back" side. As usual, there were the people who called me names for saying topspin can be generated by hitting down.

It is gratifying that pros are finally collaborating what I had said.

Rozroz 04-20-2013 10:53 AM

oops, sorry. 11 to 4.
i sort of got the idea concentrating on hitting the area of 9/11 to 3/5,
and for me i got a new spin, while NOT tossing for a kicker above my head, but a little forward as in a flatter.
he will go to more details on the toss in the next video on Monday.
it works for my lame serves anyway ;)

arche3 04-20-2013 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7356307)
http://www.patrafterserve.com/fe/464...in-it-with-pat

(around 7:22. If you cannot access it, Will might be able to help you)

No, he means 11 to 4.

He uses 11-4 for first serve (probably what we would call a top-slice), and 10-2 for a second serve.

This goes way back to the days in which I pioneered the idea that many first serves were hit down. I had explained that top spin can be generated in two ways: hitting up from the "front" side or hitting down from the "back" side. As usual, there were the people who called me names for saying topspin can be generated by hitting down.

It is gratifying that pros are finally collaborating what I had said.

You didn't invent hitting down on top spin? Everyone has been doing that. Its a mental cue that I've heard coaches use since I was a kid. Its all a part of feeling a different way to carve the stroke. You give yourself way too much credit.

sureshs 04-20-2013 11:14 AM

Why it bothered so many people when I first pioneered the idea (other than those who just wanted to be negative) was that they could not follow how you can hit down from 11. Sure you can hit down from 1, but then you are on the back side of the ball. Can you turn a globe in a direction away from you by pressing down on the 80th latitude? No.

The secret is the dwell time and deformation of the ball.

The same dwell time and deformation that comes into play when a pro appears to be hitting up on the ball at the apex but the ball comes down a degree below the horizontal.

The same dwell time and deformation which makes any spin possible. A perfectly rigid flat plane cannot put any spin on a perfectly rigid sphere, because they can always meet only tangentially at a point, and no force can be transmitted from the plane to the sphere.

Ash_Smith 04-20-2013 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7356307)
This goes way back to the days in which I pioneered the idea that many first serves were hit down. I had explained that top spin can be generated in two ways: hitting up from the "front" side or hitting down from the "back" side. As usual, there were the people who called me names for saying topspin can be generated by hitting down.

It is gratifying that pros are finally collaborating what I had said.

Yeah...did you also watch the next bit where Will states that what Pat is saying isn't the physics it's the feeling, the way Pat describes it is as he feels it, which is likely not what actually happens at the contact (Will says as much in the video)?!

sureshs 04-20-2013 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith (Post 7356391)
Yeah...did you also watch the next bit where Will states that what Pat is saying isn't the physics it's the feeling, the way Pat describes it is as he feels it, which is likely not what actually happens at the contact (Will says as much in the video)?!

Yes, and it was in my first post if you had bothered to read it:

If he wants to carve a slice, he visualizes an exaggerated carving, though the dwell time does not really allow that.

The carving for a while is not physically possible, but hitting down is. They are two separate things.

Ash_Smith 04-20-2013 11:41 AM

^^^The way I understood what Pat was saying, even when he was talking about going from 11-4, was that he was talking about pulling the racquet across the ball and carving it - therefore it would equally apply to your dwell time theory. At no point did he talk about hitting down on the ball or demonstrate it either.

However, if it helps you to think about hitting down on the ball then by all means go for it.

arche3 04-20-2013 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7356386)
Why it bothered so many people when I first pioneered the idea (other than those who just wanted to be negative) was that they could not follow how you can hit down from 11. Sure you can hit down from 1, but then you are on the back side of the ball. Can you turn a globe in a direction away from you by pressing down on the 80th latitude? No.

The secret is the dwell time and deformation of the ball.

The same dwell time and deformation that comes into play when a pro appears to be hitting up on the ball at the apex but the ball comes down a degree below the horizontal.

The same dwell time and deformation which makes any spin possible. A perfectly rigid flat plane cannot put any spin on a perfectly rigid sphere, because they can always meet only tangentially at a point, and no force can be transmitted from the plane to the sphere.

I'm not sure even if the physics your trying to use is correct. The main point is that I have personally had a coach in 1990 ? tell me to imagine hitting down on the kick serve as I was carving the shot. You didn't discover it. Possibly because ttw is so science and minutia based on technique from the rec experts you were scoffed at.

Your own explanation is too much physics. That's not what players like rafter is describing. He is describing the feel of the ball. I seriously doubt he is actually hitting 11-4. I believe your mistaken to think so literally.

sureshs 04-20-2013 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arche3 (Post 7356441)
The main point is that I have personally had a coach in 1990 ? tell me to imagine hitting down on the kick serve as I was carving the shot.

That is not correct. A kick serve is hit up. Your coach should have asked to imagine hitting up, as it is actually hit up.

Pat uses the term kick serve for his top-slice serve, and he is also probably wrong.

sureshs 04-20-2013 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith (Post 7356438)
^^^The way I understood what Pat was saying, even when he was talking about going from 11-4, was that he was talking about pulling the racquet across the ball and carving it - therefore it would equally apply to your dwell time theory. At no point did he talk about hitting down on the ball or demonstrate it either.

However, if it helps you to think about hitting down on the ball then by all means go for it.

Yes, that is the difficult part to comprehend. 11 to 4 includes 2 pieces: 11 to 12 and 12 to 4. What is probably happening is what I have always said - during the dwell time, the racket carves over the ball, going uppish in the first segment and finishing downish.

Why that is important is because (as I had explained many times) is that if the ball is truly hit up at the swing speed of the pros, then it would fly up and across the length of the court, gravity and topspin (air drag) not-withstanding. It is the falling arc of the racket at the end of the dwell time that prevents this from happening.

In the end, I would anytime trust what a proven player says over what a coach says. A coach who has never hit an advanced shot in his life just cannot visualize the dynamics of such things as he has no feel for the real thing.

tennis_balla 04-20-2013 12:02 PM

I guess after 25,000+ posts, sh*t really gets to your head.

mightyrick 04-20-2013 12:04 PM

I can't remember who said it in the thread, but when Rather says he hits at 11-4, he is talking about a top-slice. And he's really talking about "carving" the ball.

But all of these descriptions are more "feel-based" from him. That's all.

And before we call out Rafter as not being able to create a "kick" from a top/slice serve... let us all remember that this guy is a PRO level player. His serve was probably the second most lethal part of his game.

This guy generates such amazing racquet head speed and has such great technique that his top/slice serve behaves like a "kick" serve.

Also, we should remember that Pat Rafter was probably one of the only professional players to serve with nearly an Eastern grip. You might call it an "Extreme Continental" grip. I'm sure his serve grip also generated very "strange" action on his ball.

Ash_Smith 04-20-2013 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7356467)
In the end, I would anytime trust what a proven player says over what a coach says. A coach who has never hit an advanced shot in his life just cannot visualize the dynamics of such things as he has no feel for the real thing.

But apparently you can?!?!?!?

Oh... and what about the coach who taught Rafter those serves?!?!?

arche3 04-20-2013 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7356454)
That is not correct. A kick serve is hit up. Your coach should have asked to imagine hitting up, as it is actually hit up.

Pat uses the term kick serve for his top-slice serve, and he is also probably wrong.

He was describing the kick serve when I tossed far into the court. Not the rec stand in one place and let it hit your head loopy slow kick serve. He was trying to get me to hit the ball hard with kick. The up is a given. I understood what a kick serve was. He wanted to get more pace into the shot. It is all feel based. Its not science. That's the point you miss.

Cheetah 04-20-2013 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith (Post 7356391)
Yeah...did you also watch the next bit where Will states that what Pat is saying isn't the physics it's the feeling, the way Pat describes it is as he feels it, which is likely not what actually happens at the contact (Will says as much in the video)?!

that's what i meant when i said 'will clears it up mid-vid'


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