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-   -   Another played a pusher last night topic... (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=461467)

frenzy 04-23-2013 03:03 AM

Another played a pusher last night topic...
 
Hi all,

Yesterday I played a great match against a pusher, but one of the best I have ever played against. I lost the match with 6-3, 6-3, but I did not have the feeling playing bad. This guy was very consistent and a former atlete (used to run 100m in 10.5s :shock:), so about everything I have tried during the match turned out not to be working that good. A list of things that I did in my plan:
  • Play consistently deep => long rallies of +20 balls, but in the end I lost. He moved perfectly fast from left to right and forth and back.
  • Played with higher pace => he was returning my balls back to neutral so I had to start over and I made more errors.
  • Mixed up with more slices and dropshots => dropshots seem to work a bit, he handled the slices well.
  • Attack his backhand => extremely consistent backhand, no way to go there
  • Moved to the net => got lobbed a few times, but also got opportunities to score but I failed the last point. Only could make 1/15 net points. Some improvement to make here.
  • Tried to hit angles, but he managed to handle those pretty well as he was very fast. He made a couple errors how ever. Since I had to play close to the lines, I made as many errors as well.

Many things I have tried, but not very successfull. However, if I had scored the points at the net, it would be a different match. I missed agression and placement at the net, maybe I needed to try some drive volleys. Don't know. I would like to play again with him, so I can learn to deal with it :).

Do you have other ideas to play against a superman like this?

Tonyr1967 04-23-2013 04:46 AM

Trial and error against a 'wall'. Find out what works.

Some ideas:

Could try varying the length of shot, some short some long - you may find he struggles against a short ball.

Maybe shot height - hit some loopy moonballs, then some low slices.

Even if someone can deal with each shot individually - short/long, low/high, topspin/slice when you mix them you may find a weakness.

Attacking the net is a great strategy but if he is lobbing well you need to make sure your approach shots are sound.

There are 100's of threads on this subject - worth searching and reading. You only need to find 1 or 2 nuggets.

mikeler 04-23-2013 05:38 AM

Net play is how you beat a pusher. So you need to improve that area of your game.

Relinquis 04-23-2013 06:18 AM

seems like you had two successful strategies, but didn't really execute the 2nd one well:
- Get into a rally to keep him behind the baseline, drop shot him mid-rally and then come to the net for an easy volley if he gets to it.
- Serve & Volley, or come to the net after good approach shots. Looks like you need to be prepared to hit two volleys instead of trying to go for a single volley winner and making errors.

Did you get many mid-court sitters, or short balls? If so, you have to punish these consistently. You can practice this on your own with drop feeds. This will force him to go for more risky shots (more errors) or will give you a lot of easy points.

You have a great attitude about playing these guys. It really can improve your tennis. Good luck!

sureshs 04-23-2013 06:28 AM

Why is he a pusher?

GoudX 04-23-2013 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7362910)
Why is he a pusher?

if(Points won < 2*Winners){ player=pusher; }

In other words he didn't miss enough going for broke for frenzy's liking.

It might be true in this case to be honest though, I've noticed that most people who move to tennis from certain other sports will tend to use their conditioning to outlast those who only play Tennis.

A few of the members at my University club have come from other sports cannot not hit a winner to save their life, but can beat most of their opponents at their level by pushing the ball deep to the centre of the court where the opponent cannot attack it consistently and then they wear their opponent down Physically and Mentally.

tennismonkey 04-23-2013 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenzy (Post 7362743)
Only could make 1/15 net points.

you answered your own question. 14 missed volleys = 3.5 games.

mikeler 04-23-2013 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7362910)
Why is he a pusher?

Because frenzy lost to him.

TCF 04-23-2013 08:26 AM

It is all about drop shots and volleys. Some of the best pushers in the world are well trained 12 year old girls. These girls are fit and can moonball all day long. They consistently beat the girls who hit hard 6-0, 6-0.

But there is one girl in the section, only 10 years old, who destroys them. She was trained from age 5 to volley like a demon, hour after hour vs a ball machine volleying. She can swing volley, net volley, take balls out of the air. She also was trained to have a great drop shot.

I watched the best pusher I have ever seen destroy a hard hitting girl in one match. The next match she played the 10 year old and got crushed. The 10 year old executed 2 patterns over and over....deep to the corners a few times, followed by a nice drop shot. Or deep to the corners a few times, followed by an attack, swinging volley, followed by a volley at the T.

She was the best pusher slayer I have ever seen.

nyc 04-23-2013 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7362910)
Why is he a pusher?

Good question.

From the description sounds more like a counter puncher, not a pusher.

Relinquis 04-23-2013 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyc (Post 7363105)
Good question.

From the description sounds more like a counter puncher, not a pusher.

tomato, potato... neither are meat.

tennismonkey 04-23-2013 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relinquis (Post 7363112)
tomato, potato... neither are meat.

good counterpuncher is like tofu. soft and firm at the same time.

sureshs 04-23-2013 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoudX (Post 7363015)
if(Points won < 2*Winners){ player=pusher; }

We have a winner here!

For the first time in TW history, pusher has been mathematically defined.

Does it apply to the pros?

I might take this to a broader audience in the Pro Player section, but will give you due credit of course. Such advances come once in a lifetime.

mikeler 04-23-2013 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCF (Post 7363099)
It is all about drop shots and volleys. Some of the best pushers in the world are well trained 12 year old girls. These girls are fit and can moonball all day long. They consistently beat the girls who hit hard 6-0, 6-0.

But there is one girl in the section, only 10 years old, who destroys them. She was trained from age 5 to volley like a demon, hour after hour vs a ball machine volleying. She can swing volley, net volley, take balls out of the air. She also was trained to have a great drop shot.

I watched the best pusher I have ever seen destroy a hard hitting girl in one match. The next match she played the 10 year old and got crushed. The 10 year old executed 2 patterns over and over....deep to the corners a few times, followed by a nice drop shot. Or deep to the corners a few times, followed by an attack, swinging volley, followed by a volley at the T.

She was the best pusher slayer I have ever seen.


Excellent post. If you see that your ground stroke is pretty good, start moving to get ready for the inevitable defensive lob and take it out of the air either as a swinging volley or regular volley.

TennisDawg 04-23-2013 10:29 AM

The OP didn't say what NTRP level. I'm guessing it was 3.5 or 4.0. The pusher's dominate at 3.5 and to a great extent even 4.0. I just have general advice that I'm certain you've heard, either force the pusher out of his comfort zone, occasional S/V, chip and charge, attack short balls, body serves), do that well enough and you'll play at the next level and advance. The other option is to stay at 3.5 and learn to be a pusher, yourself.

TCF 04-23-2013 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeler (Post 7363334)
Excellent post. If you see that your ground stroke is pretty good, start moving to get ready for the inevitable defensive lob and take it out of the air either as a swinging volley or regular volley.

It was a text book example of how to beat them. In our section there are some very large 12 year olds who dominate the 12s. They feed the smaller girls moon ball after moon ball....20-30, whatever it takes until they miss or tire out.

Then this foreign girl showed up at age 9 last year and started beating all the big girls. I saw a video of her and she was tiny. We were surprised that this little thing could beat the big pushers every tournament.

I finally got to see her train and it was drop shots and volleys of all types. From all parts of the court. Nice disguise on her drop shot too. Hour after hour of practicing them.

We can not all train that long of course....but it is a proven recipe for beating the consistent balls with little pace.

Govnor 04-23-2013 10:49 AM

I have limited experience, but have heard from others that Net Play is indeed the key to at least making it easier.

There was a very simple 3 shot combo that someone suggested a while back that I thought made a lot of sense. Let's assume their backhand is their weaker side. You set it up by hitting wide to their forehand, if the ball is coming back weak, you are attacking to end the point. You then hit wide to their backhand and approach the net aggressively. The chances of a pusher now hitting a passing shot in this scenario are tiny, as are the chances of them hitting a good lob, as they should be having to move way out wide again to their weaker side. The most likely shot you will get back is weak return down the middle, at a very manageable height (or an error). You just need to go for it.

frenzy 04-23-2013 10:35 PM

Thanks to all of you for the feedback. Regarding the NTRP level, I think it matches 3.0-3.5 (we have the European system here). For further improvement from my side, I'll be practising in the next few weeks volley and half volley, especially on low pace balls. I need to be able to put more aggression into it. Dropshot needs more practice as well, but more in a strategic way (like the 10yo girl that was mentioned in one of the posts).

And of course play him again :), learn from it and apply the things I have put into practice to see if it goes better.

5263 04-23-2013 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenzy (Post 7364725)
Thanks to all of you for the feedback. Regarding the NTRP level, I think it matches 3.0-3.5 (we have the European system here). For further improvement from my side, I'll be practising in the next few weeks volley and half volley, especially on low pace balls. I need to be able to put more aggression into it. Dropshot needs more practice as well, but more in a strategic way (like the 10yo girl that was mentioned in one of the posts).

And of course play him again :), learn from it and apply the things I have put into practice to see if it goes better.

Try the deep high bouncer to the Bh side pushing them back and wide, then follow
with a short angle slice to the Fh side. It combines back, angles, high bounce,
low bounce, side to side and up and back.... all in 2 simple shots.

Not beating a pusher just shows a lack of execution on short ball attacks.
Pushers always give up these attackable short balls, so if you can execute,
you will win pretty easy.
If they are not giving up attackable shorter balls, they are not truly a pusher.

frenzy 04-24-2013 12:29 AM

Hi 5263,

That's a good tip as well, thx. I have had those shorter balls although I needed to be patient (that's why I got to the net so often), but could not "finish" them either by winner or by approach shot followed by volley... The approach shot usually resulted in a lob or a mid high low pace topspin ball to which I could not reply to properly. Then my volley was a bit too cautious.

BTW: Do you have good exercises / references to practice these short attackable balls?


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