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-   -   Is Djokovic the most complete player of the modern era? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=461868)

ProRadTour 04-27-2013 09:07 AM

Is Djokovic the most complete player of the modern era?
 
Given his performance over the last few years it seems to me that his game has developed to level of completeness I personally haven't seen.

His physical attributes such as height, speed, movement and stamina are a difficult proposition for any opponent to overcome. His game has improved significantly and he can hit almost equally well from both wings. His return game is now regarded by many as the best the game has seen.

He seems more than capable at the net, difficult to measure how good he is in this department as the modern game doesn't really require great net skills to succeed.

Bottom line is I don't really see any weakness is his game for an opponent to exploit. He has a great backhand, excellent forehand, excellent serve, great returns and can defend better than anyone I have ever seen.

I know his results do not compare to Fed and Nadal yet, but I feel he is a more complete player than both Fed and Nadal.

In full flight he is the most likely player to complete the Grand Slam and may very well before his career ends. Fed is past his best, and with Nadal only time will tell if he can reach the required level to challenge Djokovic again post his time off with injury.

monfed 04-27-2013 09:07 AM

Maybe if he learns to volley. :lol:

Nitish 04-27-2013 09:20 AM

He is a complete baseliner,his netplay sucks:)

tennis_pro 04-27-2013 09:24 AM

I know what you meant.

Djokovic is the perfect type of player in the current era, he's got all he needs - strong off both wings, tough mentally, fast, agile, flexible.

But since his volleys are below average and his serve while showing signs of improvement is still average which means he's not "complete". Just perfectly suited for the modern baseline era.

Phoenix1983 04-27-2013 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis_pro (Post 7371514)
I know what you meant.

Djokovic is the perfect type of player in the current era, he's got all he needs - strong off both wings, tough mentally, fast, agile, flexible.

But since his volleys are below average and his serve while showing signs of improvement is still average which means he's not "complete". Just perfectly suited for the modern baseline era.

Yes, this is a good way to summarise the situation. Djokovic is not an all-round complete tennis genius (I think Federer is above him in that respect). However, due to the homogenisation of playing styles and surfaces, a peak Djokovic is close to unbeatable on all surfaces. Which is why he stands a good chance of becoming the first man since Laver to win the Calendar Year Grand Slam.

Nitish 04-27-2013 09:37 AM

For me a complete player is someone who has ability to hit through the court from the baseline,a great serve to get him out of tight spots,defensive play in terms of lobs and slices,net play (not just come in for easy volleys),Ability to impart variety of spin on the ball(flat and create angles with spin),good footwork and movement and fluid transition from defense to offense.
Djokovic is a complete baseliner.Guys like Federer,borg have better all round game than djokovic.IMO Murray has a better all round game than novak.

Clarky21 04-27-2013 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitish (Post 7371503)
He is a complete baseliner,his netplay sucks:)

I agree with this. Djesus has crap overheads and isn't a great volleyer. His slice also isn't that great either, but he hangs on the baseline better than anyone does. That doesn't make him the most complete player of the modern era, though because he isn't.

kiki 04-27-2013 10:04 AM

He´d be a good tennis player in the Golden Era...

single_handed_champion 04-27-2013 10:31 AM

Best adapted to the modern era, maybe.

Most complete: Fed by a light year. I know you'll say 'Oh, topspin backhand against high balls'. That is 1 player. Djokovic can be thrown off by the slice of Wozniacki.

djokovic2008 04-27-2013 10:44 AM

Volleys, slice and overheads are secondary elements of the modern game therefore djoker is the most complete player ever in the modern era hence the success he is having now. Whether its quick conditions like dubai or indoors like the WTF or clay,grass and hardcourt he wins, when you can be equally aggressive with total consistency of both wings you will win more than not. Feds backhand is the weak spot players like nadal,djoker and murray look for so fed cannot be considered complete and the same goes for nadals backhand. But what side do you go to in djokers game and get certain success?

kiki 04-27-2013 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djokovic2008 (Post 7371667)
Volleys, slice and overheads are secondary elements of the modern game therefore djoker is the most complete player ever in the modern era hence the success he is having now. Whether its quick conditions like dubai or indoors like the WTF or clay,grass and hardcourt he wins, when you can be equally aggressive with total consistency of both wings you will win more than not. Feds backhand is the weak spot players like nadal,djoker and murray look for so fed cannot be considered complete and the same goes for nadals backhand. But what side do you go to in djokers game and get certain success?

by modern era you understand current era, right?

Nitish 04-27-2013 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djokovic2008 (Post 7371667)
Volleys, slice and overheads are secondary elements of the modern game therefore djoker is the most complete player ever in the modern era hence the success he is having now. Whether its quick conditions like dubai or indoors like the WTF or clay,grass and hardcourt he wins, when you can be equally aggressive with total consistency of both wings you will win more than not. Feds backhand is the weak spot players like nadal,djoker and murray look for so fed cannot be considered complete and the same goes for nadals backhand. But what side do you go to in djokers game and get certain success?

Slicing the ball is enough you dont need to pick sides:twisted:

monfed 04-27-2013 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djokovic2008 (Post 7371667)
Volleys, slice and overheads are secondary elements of the modern game therefore djoker is the most complete player ever in the modern era hence the success he is having now. Whether its quick conditions like dubai or indoors like the WTF or clay,grass and hardcourt he wins, when you can be equally aggressive with total consistency of both wings you will win more than not. Feds backhand is the weak spot players like nadal,djoker and murray look for so fed cannot be considered complete and the same goes for nadals backhand. But what side do you go to in djokers game and get certain success?

You throw him off his rhythm which Fed displayed at RG 2011(peak Djokovic no less), USO 2011(almost) and Wimby 2012.

Basically slice n dice him.

djokovic2008 04-27-2013 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monfed (Post 7371676)
You throw him off his rhythm which Fed displayed at RG 2011(peak Djokovic no less), USO 2011(almost) and Wimby 2012.

Basically slice n dice him.

One match? if that always worked fed and the rest of the tour would try that all the time but that is not gonna work on a consistent basis. You mention certain matches but what happens at the WTF finals or RG last year it does not always work.

ProRadTour 04-27-2013 11:12 AM

I partially agree with the slice and dice theory. Fed troubles Djokovic on occasion and so dis Warwinka in the AO. I think the major reason why is because both these players possess excellent slice backhands and can rely on a variety of pace and spin which cause errors as it affects rhythm.

Now that I think about it, Murray also has an excellent slice backhand and uses it a lot more than Nadal does. Murray does also have the game to trouble Djokovic because Murray does vary spin and pace very well. Murray's major weakness is he has a terrible second serve.

It's partial because Djokovic still manages to deal with it. But there is not doubt that this seems to affect his game a lot more.

ProRadTour 04-27-2013 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis_pro (Post 7371514)
I know what you meant.

Djokovic is the perfect type of player in the current era, he's got all he needs - strong off both wings, tough mentally, fast, agile, flexible.

But since his volleys are below average and his serve while showing signs of improvement is still average which means he's not "complete". Just perfectly suited for the modern baseline era.

Well I personally think his serve is above average. According to the stats on the ATP site for career service games won Djokovic is 18 (all time). He is 9th on Return Games won (all time) and 2nd for career Break points converted.

If you consider the list below, the top 20 greatest serve hold percentages (all time) are the following:

Ivo Karlovic
Andy Roddick
John Isner
Pete Sampras
Wayne Arthurs
Roger Federer
Richard Krajicek
Jo-Wilfried Tsonga
Greg Rusedski
Boris Becker
Goran Ivanisevic
Rafael Nadal
Mark Philippoussis
Ivan Ljubicic
Michael Stich
Patrick Rafter
Kevin Anderson
Novak Djokovic
Jim Courier
Guy Forget

His serve game is among the elite servers of the sport. There are some phenomenal servers on that list, while Djokovic's serve doesn't compare to the very best servers on that list his serve is well above average. When you factor in serving as well as returning stats, his forehand/backhand, movement/athleticism, mental strength the complete statement starts to look a lot more complete. :) (OK, excluding net play).

I couldn't see any stats for points won at net. As the modern game is heavily orientated toward baseline play, his net game doesn't really get tested. Judging by the overall development of his game, I am sure he would have developed an excellent net game if required. After all he is an elite athlete with excellent movement around the court I am sure he could have adapted those skills to improving this part of his game.

abmk 04-27-2013 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monfed (Post 7371676)
You throw him off his rhythm which Fed displayed at RG 2011(peak Djokovic no less), USO 2011(almost) and Wimby 2012.

Basically slice n dice him.

murray did that on occasions as well ......

mattennis 04-27-2013 11:30 AM

Define "modern" era and "complete" (some people use the word "complete" to describe a player that wins in all surfaces, even if he is not a complete player by any means).

Djokovic is an absolutely great baseliner, which is great and enough in this era to win everywhere against all the rest (that are baseliners too).

But he is not a complete player in the sense of being great with all possible strokes and that uses a very varied set of winning points, all kind of winning shots/strategies.

By the way, being "complete" is not necessarily a great thing.

Cedric Pioline, Todd Martin, Wayne Ferreira, Carlos Costa (not Albert), Malivai Washington, Jason Stoltenberg....were very complete players (they all used all kind of shots to win points, they could play as well from the baseline as at the net, and in fact all them varied constantly the way they constructed their points depending on surfaces, matches, opponents...).

They were much more complete than Agassi and Rafter, for example, but both Agassi and Rafter were much better players (because both Agassi and Rafter were THE BEST of the world at something important, Agassi baseline strokes and return, Rafter net game and kick serve).

powerangle 04-27-2013 11:46 AM

He's very complete as far as being a baseliner (great forehand, backhand, return, lateral movement, anticipation, flexibility). He's not exactly "complete" in the sense of all-court play (Federer is more complete in that sense, but maybe less complete of a baseliner due to his relatively weaker backhnd).

djokovic2008 04-27-2013 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattennis (Post 7371773)
Define "modern" era and "complete" (some people use the word "complete" to describe a player that wins in all surfaces, even if he is not a complete player by any means).

Djokovic is an absolutely great baseliner, which is great and enough in this era to win everywhere against all the rest (that are baseliners too).

But he is not a complete player in the sense of being great with all possible strokes and that uses a very varied set of winning points, all kind of winning shots/strategies.

By the way, being "complete" is not necessarily a great thing.

Cedric Pioline, Todd Martin, Wayne Ferreira, Carlos Costa (not Albert), Malivai Washington, Jason Stoltenberg....were very complete players (they all used all kind of shots to win points, they could play as well from the baseline as at the net, and in fact all them varied constantly the way they constructed their points depending on surfaces, matches, opponents...).

They were much more complete than Agassi and Rafter, for example, but both Agassi and Rafter were much better players (because both Agassi and Rafter were THE BEST of the world at something important, Agassi baseline strokes and return, Rafter net game and kick serve).





Interesting way of looking at it, I guess being a master of one trade can be better than being good at everything but a master of none.


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