Talk Tennis

Talk Tennis (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php)
-   Former Pro Player Talk (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=37)
-   -   Big Pancho under-rated (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=463080)

BobbyOne 05-09-2013 11:29 AM

Big Pancho under-rated
 
Ricardo "Pancho" Gonzalez would turn 85 today.

"Big Pancho" for many years was considered GOAT by many experts, at least till Laver realized his second Grand Slam.

Nowadays Pancho is strangely under-rated. The "experts" of Tennis Channel ranked him only at place 22...

Gonzalez (or Gonzales as he often is called) ruled tennis world for at least 7 years, probably even for 9 years. He won at least 14 majors (17 if we consider Forest Hills Pro) and was victorious in seven big pro tours ("World Series") against many all-time greats.

He won tournaments from 1948 to 1972 (being the oldest tournament winner in open era) and beat top players like Laver, Rosewall, Newcombe, Roche, Ashe, Smith, Connors, and Borg when being a grandpa (actually!) at 40 and older. Altogether Pancho won at least 121 tourneys.

His game was dominated by his huge service (arguable the best of all time), his great forehand, the tough net game and his mobility.

forzamilan90 05-09-2013 12:12 PM

He'd be ranked higher had they kept the women away from that list and put them in a separate one. So only men compared to men, and women to women.

BobbyOne 05-09-2013 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forzamilan90 (Post 7398430)
He'd be ranked higher had they kept the women away from that list and put them in a separate one. So only men compared to men, and women to women.

Forza, Gonzalez was No.22 among the MEN and No. 35 in the "mixed" list.

forzamilan90 05-09-2013 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne (Post 7398473)
Forza, Gonzalez was No.22 among the MEN and No. 35 in the "mixed" list.


NatF 05-09-2013 12:50 PM

That's a glaring problem with their list for sure. He should be top 10 atleast, preferably top 5. That long on top of the rankings is crazy.

Mustard 05-09-2013 01:02 PM

In my opinion, the people who did that Tennis Channel list didn't even take Gonzales' pre-1968 professional years into account. They just looked at his 2 amateur US Championships in the late 1940s, the fact that he won that epic against Pasarell at 1969 Wimbledon at the age of 41, and little much else.

BobbyOne 05-09-2013 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustard (Post 7398584)
In my opinion, the people who did that Tennis Channel list didn't even take Gonzales' pre-1968 professional years into account. They just looked at his 2 amateur US Championships in the late 1940s, the fact that he won that epic against Pasarell at 1969 Wimbledon at the age of 41, and little much else.

Mustard, I also think so. They ranked Emerson at No.11 (men) because he won 12 majors not considering they only were amateur majors.

It's interesting to watch a short video "Pancho Gonzalez the Latino Legend".

BobbyOne 05-09-2013 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forzamilan90 (Post 7398517)

Forza, Yes, it's hard to believe.

Anyone4tennis? 05-10-2013 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne (Post 7398255)
Nowadays Pancho is strangely under-rated.

Strangely, indeed. And to this day, I still cannot figure out why. Why would someone of this caliber not get the due respect and recognition that he deserves? He was undeniably one of the most fiercest competitors and champions that the world has ever seen.

jrs 05-10-2013 08:30 AM

Could it be because he was different. Latin and from the wrong side of the tracks. In another thread I created about him a GOAT - someone mentioned - he also came with an attitude.

NatF 05-10-2013 08:32 AM

From the old pro's;

1) Laver
2) Gonzalez
3) Rosewall

BobbyOne 05-10-2013 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anyone4tennis? (Post 7400860)
Strangely, indeed. And to this day, I still cannot figure out why. Why would someone of this caliber not get the due respect and recognition that he deserves? He was undeniably one of the most fiercest competitors and champions that the world has ever seen.

Anyone4tennis, It comes maybe from the inclination of people to underrate the feats of past champions and to concentrate on the current and recent scene. A player like Bill Tilden is vastly underrated nowadays and a player like Gonzalez too even though the latter was successful even in open era.

Yes, Pancho is one of the fiercest players at all. Bud Collins wrote that he would choose Gonzalez as the player who should play for his life.

Pancho's only blame might be his tendency to intimidate opponents and umpires...

abmk 05-10-2013 09:59 AM

It has to do with the fact that many are not aware of that much about what happened in the pro circuit in that time frame.

For instance , sampras himself said he didn't know his countryman Gonzales because he hadn't won Wimbledon...

laver, borg, mac are highly rated because of their feats in the open era.

emerson won 12 amateur majors and was rated 'highly' in the list ...though he was nowhere near gonzales overall ...

gonzales' case doesn't have to do with people under-rating the tennis players of the past in general ...rather its because of lack of awareness about the pro circuit at that time ...

BobbyOne 05-10-2013 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abmk (Post 7401483)
It has to do with the fact that many are not aware of that much about what happened in the pro circuit in that time frame.

For instance , sampras himself said he didn't know his countryman Gonzales because he hadn't won Wimbledon...

laver, borg, mac are highly rated because of their feats in the open era.

emerson won 12 amateur majors and was rated 'highly' in the list ...though he was nowhere near gonzales overall ...

gonzales' case doesn't have to do with people under-rating the tennis players of the past in general ...rather its because of lack of awareness about the pro circuit at that time ...

abmk, You are right regarding the neglecting of the old pro scene.

forzamilan90 05-10-2013 10:51 AM

I keep hearing that word intimidated and it brings me back to something I saw recently. There was a video of Borg vs Laver on youtube someone posted a few weeks back with Pancho as a commentator...now he may have been imposing for his time on the court, but his voice doesn't match that persona at all. Very...geekish, nothing like his fiery body motions would make you believe.

Mustard 05-10-2013 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrs (Post 7401097)
Could it be because he was different. Latin and from the wrong side of the tracks. In another thread I created about him a GOAT - someone mentioned - he also came with an attitude.

That's an understatement. When Gonzales was an amateur in the late 1940s, he was an easy going person. Gonzales got angry after all the mocking following his 1950 world pro tour loss to Kramer and the fact that his market value as a tennis professional had gone well down in the aftermath. Gonzales then sacrificed a lot over the years to be the very best in tennis, and all those sacrifices made him even angrier still. He was also paid less than his challengers on the world pro tours, again making him angrier.

NatF 05-10-2013 12:31 PM

Even 36 year old slower Pancho was often extremely tough for Laver and Rosewall, I think peak level wise he was possibly the best of all 3 of the giants of that era.

Mustard 05-10-2013 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forzamilan90 (Post 7401607)
I keep hearing that word intimidated and it brings me back to something I saw recently. There was a video of Borg vs Laver on youtube someone posted a few weeks back with Pancho as a commentator...now he may have been imposing for his time on the court, but his voice doesn't match that persona at all. Very...geekish, nothing like his fiery body motions would make you believe.

You've got it the wrong way round. It's his "geekish" commentary that's deceptive, not his fiery on-court personality.

BobbyOne 05-10-2013 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forzamilan90 (Post 7401607)
I keep hearing that word intimidated and it brings me back to something I saw recently. There was a video of Borg vs Laver on youtube someone posted a few weeks back with Pancho as a commentator...now he may have been imposing for his time on the court, but his voice doesn't match that persona at all. Very...geekish, nothing like his fiery body motions would make you believe.

Forza, Please watch Pancho Gonzalez Latino Legend on youtube-

BobbyOne 05-10-2013 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatF (Post 7401821)
Even 36 year old slower Pancho was often extremely tough for Laver and Rosewall, I think peak level wise he was possibly the best of all 3 of the giants of that era.

NatF, It really could be.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:38 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006 - Tennis Warehouse