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SStrikerR 05-27-2013 09:13 PM

WW forehand - wrist
 
Ive recorded myself playing before, and have noticed that when I hit (extreme eastern), my wrist is still laid back through most of the stroke, like a lot of wta players do. How can I change this to hit more like an ATP player? Is it a low to high thing? Extension? I'm thinking that forcing my wrist forward would probably not work, and end up causing an injury. So, any ideas?

Stop this video at 2:59 if you're still confused as to what I'm asking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtuTHsFlfGg

tkoziol 05-27-2013 09:25 PM

I'm confused. Here is a video of Federer in slow motion. He isn't extreme Eastern, but certainly closer to that grip than other players (Djoker, Nadal, etc.).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLJICtcehCo

If you notice in the video Federer has his wrist laid back through the majority of the stroke. In fact, the wrist moving forward from its laid back position is more of a "by product" of the windshield wiper follow-through. If you pause at :41 or :56 you can see that the wrist is still laid back even after the ball has made contact and left the stringbed.

Lukhas 05-27-2013 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SStrikerR (Post 7448611)
Ive recorded myself playing before, and have noticed that when I hit (extreme eastern), my wrist is still laid back through most of the stroke, like a lot of wta players do. How can I change this to hit more like an ATP player? Is it a low to high thing? Extension? I'm thinking that forcing my wrist forward would probably not work, and end up causing an injury. So, any ideas?

Compare, and see which is the one the closest to your forehand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0uCQBiH2Ko

Don't hesitate to shadow swing to get the motion. And forget about the wrist: the wrist doesn't actually move during the shot.

Cheetah 05-27-2013 10:21 PM

Contact (most whippy pros) is made with an almost totally neutral wrist.
Look at the Fed vid and freeze on the contact. The wrist is very close to neutral, not laid back. That's neutral. You can see the same on almost every nadal and djokovic fh too.
The wrist moves during the stroke and before contact (atp ssc type strokes) and is not a by product of the follow through.

You'd probably be better off with a more stable wrist type of stroke. Incorporating the movements you see in fed et al vids is very difficult and requires a lot of work and maintenance. a lot. (if you want to do it correctly w/o arming the ball, proper follow through, weight transfer, hitting structure etc etc)

loosegroove 05-27-2013 10:25 PM

The ww forehand is much less wrist than many people think it is. The "wristy" looking part is really from when you bend your elbow on the follow-through.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, wrist is involved. But I feel so often people trying to learn ww forehands are trying to wrist the ball (it's bad enough when people are arming all their shots). That leads to a crappy forehand and a pretty damn sore wrist.

SStrikerR 05-28-2013 04:43 AM

I'm not trying to get my wrist more involved than I have to. But I don't know all the mechanics of the stroke, so I have to guess at what is wrong. Basically, when I hit, my racquets strings are perpendicular to the court most of the time, whereas pros strings are more parallel. What could I be doing wrong?

rkelley 05-28-2013 07:11 AM

Here's a better video of Fed's fh - super slow motion of just a fh.

You can see that his wrist is getting close to neutral at contact, but is still a bit laid back. I think the more W grips tend to be more neutral at contact, while the more E. grips tend to still have a bit of lay back left in them.

SStrikerR 05-28-2013 07:56 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa-3GStYh_I

is this even true? Seems to be the exact opposite of what will hamilton says in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtuTHsFlfGg



Stop this next video at 2:59 and you'll see what I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtuTHsFlfGg

rkelley 05-28-2013 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SStrikerR (Post 7451657)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa-3GStYh_I

is this even true? Seems to be the exact opposite of what will hamilton says in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtuTHsFlfGg



Stop this next video at 2:59 and you'll see what I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtuTHsFlfGg

The first video with Coach Kyril I'd grade as pretty marginal. Forearm (not wrist) pronation is correct, but you don't bend your elbow to get more wiping action. You do rotate your upper arm, but CK didn't say that.

Hit in front is good. Really bad is that he seems to be saying that you're forcing the forearm to pronate through just a brute force muscle contraction. The pronation, like the wrist flexion that provides the power, happens via stretch-shortening. The power comes from the core and legs and is stored in the forearm and wrist. The whipping action as all of this stored power is released is where the power comes from.

His "second phase" and the first drop feeds show the racquet pointing backward towards the back fence. But note when he starts to hit harder late in the video the racquet is pointing more to the side during his prep phase, which I think is much better. He also uses stretch-shortening, power from the core, blah, blah, when he's hitting harder.

Will's video is better and brings up some very good points, but still misses some others. His WW forehand still has a lot of classic elements, like the neutral stance and long, pointing-to-the-back backswing, that detract from some of the potential of the shot.

I really like the video that shows the difference between a classic fh and a modern fh:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0uCQBiH2Ko

Here's a good teaching video on a modern fh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0uCQBiH2Ko

and here's a good example of the best implementing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk

user92626 05-28-2013 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SStrikerR (Post 7448956)
I'm not trying to get my wrist more involved than I have to. But I don't know all the mechanics of the stroke, so I have to guess at what is wrong. Basically, when I hit, my racquets strings are perpendicular to the court most of the time, whereas pros strings are more parallel. What could I be doing wrong?

You make things too complicated. Forget the WW thing. Just drive through the ball with racket face open or slightly closed. When the ball goes to the net, your instinct should activate and you want to swing upward as if to drive the ball higher to clear the net. Pros don't care about WW. They drive through the ball like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8FoCRbd8bg

rkelley 05-28-2013 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by user92626 (Post 7451954)
You make things too complicated. Forget the WW thing. Just drive through the ball with racket face open or slightly closed. When the ball goes to the net, your instinct should activate and you want to swing upward as if to drive the ball higher to clear the net. Pros don't care about WW. They drive through the ball like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8FoCRbd8bg

Along with the drive through the ball Nadal is violently and explosively whipping the racquet head up through the contact zone. Those balls have a lot of topspin. That stroke just doesn't happen, you need to learn it.

rkelley 05-28-2013 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SStrikerR (Post 7448611)
Ive recorded myself playing before, and have noticed that when I hit (extreme eastern), my wrist is still laid back through most of the stroke, like a lot of wta players do. How can I change this to hit more like an ATP player? Is it a low to high thing? Extension? I'm thinking that forcing my wrist forward would probably not work, and end up causing an injury. So, any ideas?

Stop this video at 2:59 if you're still confused as to what I'm asking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtuTHsFlfGg

Actually addressing your original post . . .

I use an almost SW grip, or a very strong extreme E. grip. The great thing about this grip is that you get a lot of natural "through" the ball action. The challenge with this grip is that you really have to focus on getting the upward path of the swing path to generate the topspin. The keys for me have been:

- Right before the swing the racquet needs to be pointing to the side fence with the face more or less parallel to the ground, below the expected contact point

- Weight on the back/outside leg whenever possible (not always possible - especially on short balls).

- Use your legs and core to drive your shoulders around. This naturally brings your racquet out front, lays it back (you can think of it as the racquet handle driven to the ball OR the butt of the handle pointed at the ball - whatever works for you), and supinates the forearm.

- Pull up and across with the arm. The wrist will naturally flex and the forearm pronate, releasing the energy stored from the shoulder rotation and making the racquet go through and up across the back of the ball.

The racquet should feel like it's whipping into and up across the back of the ball, even with a gentle swing. The more powerfully you drive with your core and legs, the more the racquet will whip. You cannot let your arm and hand sweep through the contact zone - particularly with this grip. You'll hit the ball hard, but you won't get anywhere near the same topspin and the ball will tend fly long.

Hope that helps.

5263 05-31-2013 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SStrikerR (Post 7448611)
Ive recorded myself playing before, and have noticed that when I hit (extreme eastern), my wrist is still laid back through most of the stroke, like a lot of wta players do. How can I change this to hit more like an ATP player? Is it a low to high thing? Extension? I'm thinking that forcing my wrist forward would probably not work, and end up causing an injury. So, any ideas?

Stop this video at 2:59 if you're still confused as to what I'm asking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtuTHsFlfGg

I don't agree with your assumptions and maybe because I don't agree with Wil.

Francis27 05-31-2013 01:35 PM

When it comes to WW forehands i love watching rafael nadal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eqeYrCddo0

JohnYandell 05-31-2013 01:51 PM

With the Fed extreme eastern grip the wrist is somewhat laid on most shots, very laid back on inside balls, and closer to neutral or neutral on wide balls, particularly hit crosscourt.
The vast majority have some degree of lay back.

Although it is commonly believed that there is a stretch shorten cycle here that generates power, from what I understand from Brian Gordon, that is a misconception.

The wrist is loose and naturally comes somewhat forward with the swing. It is also used to make the small adjustments that control shot direction.

It's not active contraction to contribute to the stroke. Really it tends to take care of itself if the right elements are in place technically and there is a tendency with some players to micro focus on the wrist when larger issues are more critical to improvement.

GuyClinch 05-31-2013 01:52 PM

Nadal hits mostly buggy whips nowadays.. So he is not a great model.. unless you want to hit like that..

I think its wrong to think about the WW forehand the way Will does. Its not about a way to generate extreme topspin (though it can) its about swinging across your body with a loading of the outside leg while turning over the hand..

With a traditional forehand you are swinging through the ball and finishing up high so its like a low to high thing and with the WW forehand you are swinging more across your body. Thats why the finish ends up lower (along with the hand turning bit).

This guy explains it better then Coach K or WH IMHO..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmneYietg5g

As for the wrist I think its pretty much just along for the ride - it lays back during the foreword swing because its held loose. I think the WTA players tend to lock it laid back and that takes away technically from their forehands. What you want is low grip pressure.. That's way easier said then done..

GuyClinch 05-31-2013 02:25 PM

If you want to hit like Nadal...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfaZQT_DDR4

The thing about the buggy whip is - you need to be pretty good before you get coaching on it. I always wonder if it should be the first forehand people learn instead of the last..


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