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-   -   Jim Courier or Novak Djokovic? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=466569)

Nathaniel_Near 06-12-2013 03:38 AM

Jim Courier or Novak Djokovic?
 
On clay... the better player is?

Def 06-12-2013 04:07 AM

Results back Courier, but I think that Djokovic will win a FO, probably not 2, but who knows, and a bunch of clay masters to even that out.

Nathaniel_Near 06-12-2013 04:09 AM

Nadal is the true answer to both this thread and the other similar thread, for obvious reasons.

Def 06-12-2013 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel_Near (Post 7501669)
Nadal is the true answer to both this thread and the other similar thread, for obvious reasons.

Why did you start either of the thread then? :confused:

Nathaniel_Near 06-12-2013 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Def (Post 7501704)
Why did you start either of the thread then? :confused:

Umm, to gauge the response of the forum perhaps. Is this why polls are made?!!!! For example: You have responded to this thread with your own opinion, and I thank you for it. It has contributed richly to the thread. The response wouldn't have existed had I not made the thread, and the poll is an added bonus. I look forward to reading more opinions regarding the topic and seeing how the polls sway.

90's Clay 06-12-2013 04:46 AM

Courier. Just much more natural ability on clay

Def 06-12-2013 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel_Near (Post 7501721)
Umm, to gauge the response of the forum perhaps. Is this why polls are made?!!!! For example: You have responded to this thread with your own opinion, and I thank you for it. It has contributed richly to the thread. The response wouldn't have existed had I not made the thread, and the poll is an added bonus. I look forward to reading more opinions regarding the topic and seeing how the polls sway.

That is like you asking whether strawberries or blueberries are better, and saying that the real answer is pizza...

I am fine with the question, just confused why you would pose about a totally different person, who obviously is better, a fact that wasn't up for debate.

Flash O'Groove 06-12-2013 04:59 AM

Career winning percentage on clay:
9) Djoko .771 - 43) Courier .685

Slams results:
Djoko: 1 RU, 4 SF, 2 QF - Courier: 2 W, 1RU, 1SF, 1QF

Masters 1000 results:
Djoko: 4W, 4RU, 4SF - Courier: 2W

This is a bit unfair because Courier skipped a lot of of clay masters 1000. They weren't mandatory and other tournaments could provide as many money or ranking points.

Years at beeing a force on the surface:
Djoko: 6 (did't count 2010) - Courier: 4

Djokovic has lost 5 time against Nadal at RG, once in a final he would have won without Nadal (2012), once in a SF he could have won without Nadal (2008). He also lost a SF against Fed that he would have won without him (2011).

Courrier lost twice against Bruguera. Once in SF, once in final. He would have had a lot of chance to win more titles without Segri. In the two editions that he won, he defeated Agassi and Korda in the finals, and avoided clay specialist in the SF (playing Edberg, Stich, etc.)

So I think Djokovic may be the better player, and will probably be at the end of his career. Courier is still ahead achievement-wise.

Nathaniel_Near 06-12-2013 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Def (Post 7501740)
That is like you asking whether strawberries or blueberries are better, and saying that the real answer is pizza...

I am fine with the question, just confused why you would pose about a totally different person, who obviously is better, a fact that wasn't up for debate.

Ok nevermind, I see how you've confused what I said. What I mean is that the answer is the cause of Nadal, in that I voted Fed and Nole in both polls BECAUSE I think the only reason they may not have as good results on clay as Courier is because of the Nadal effect. I wasn't being facetious but now I see how it was misconstrued. I'll try be clearer next time as I know I do have a habit of being vague and obtuse.

Def 06-12-2013 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash O'Groove (Post 7501744)
Career winning percentage on clay:
9) Djoko .771 - 43) Courier .685

Slams results:
Djoko: 1 RU, 4 SF, 2 QF - Courier: 2 W, 2 SF, 2 QF

Courier had a RU at the French Open

Flash O'Groove 06-12-2013 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Def (Post 7501767)
Courier had a RU at the French Open

Thanks, I edited.

Fiji 06-12-2013 09:04 AM

Novak by far.

Steve0904 06-12-2013 09:14 AM

2 RG titles to 0. Easy answer.

Fiji 06-12-2013 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve0904 (Post 7502352)
2 RG titles to 0. Easy answer.

Djokovic plays at the same time as the clay GOAT.

pds999 06-12-2013 09:21 AM

If they were to play each other, both at their peaks, Novak would win in straight sets. Not even really that close. Novak pushed Nadal to the limit at RG this year and has beaten him on clay 3 times in Masters 1000's which is unheard of.

Nathaniel_Near 06-12-2013 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fiji (Post 7502362)
Djokovic plays at the same time as the clay GOAT.

*nodding..*

MichaelNadal 06-12-2013 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fiji (Post 7502362)
Djokovic plays at the same time as the clay GOAT.

Sounds like a personal problem. :)

Steve0904 06-12-2013 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fiji (Post 7502362)
Djokovic plays at the same time as the clay GOAT.

Still an easy answer. Djokovic has blown about 3 chances to win RG whether he had to beat Nadal or not. He's blown chances in 2009 (losing to Kohlschreiber in 3 pretty easy sets), 2011 when he would've had his best chance to beat Nadal, and this year when he had the break and couldn't keep it (although Nadal should've finished it in 4 the point stands). He's also come very close to losing at his peak/prime (whatever you want to call it) to guys like Tsonga and Seppi, and in 2010 he lost a 2 set lead against Melzer.

Just not enough consistency for me to give him the nod over a guy with 2 RG titles regardless of the era he plays in. At some point, we can't just give guys like Federer and Djokovic extra RG titles because they play with Nadal. I don't put Federer over anyone with 3 or more RG titles for example.

cc0509 06-12-2013 09:45 AM

Courier was better on clay, no contest here.

Nathaniel_Near 06-14-2013 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve0904 (Post 7502411)
Still an easy answer. Djokovic has blown about 3 chances to win RG whether he had to beat Nadal or not. He's blown chances in 2009 (losing to Kohlschreiber in 3 pretty easy sets), 2011 when he would've had his best chance to beat Nadal, and this year when he had the break and couldn't keep it (although Nadal should've finished it in 4 the point stands). He's also come very close to losing at his peak/prime (whatever you want to call it) to guys like Tsonga and Seppi, and in 2010 he lost a 2 set lead against Melzer.

Just not enough consistency for me to give him the nod over a guy with 2 RG titles regardless of the era he plays in. At some point, we can't just give guys like Federer and Djokovic extra RG titles because they play with Nadal. I don't put Federer over anyone with 3 or more RG titles for example.

A fairly compelling argument.


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