Talk Tennis

Talk Tennis (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php)
-   Tennis Tips/Instruction (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
-   -   Why do so many good servers THINK they carve the ball? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=467513)

HunterST 06-21-2013 02:29 PM

Why do so many good servers THINK they carve the ball?
 
If you ask a big server how they hit a slice serve, I've found that a lot of them say they carve around the outside. Even though high speed video shows this isn't the case, there must be something behind it.

What is your theory on why big servers get this feel?

I think part of it is they are indeed striking the right side of the ball rather than the back. anything else?

LeeD 06-21-2013 02:34 PM

Loose grip allows the racket to deflect slightly in the hand, folowing the ball a fraction of a second longer than just a pure chopping motion.
I still say, a player who slices his serves is a lower level player. A good player slices his serves and adds some topspin to bring the ball down to the court, allowing him to swing faster.
The extreme curve of a pure slice only bothers players who have never seen it.

Cindysphinx 06-21-2013 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeD (Post 7522650)
Loose grip allows the racket to deflect slightly in the hand, folowing the ball a fraction of a second longer than just a pure chopping motion.
I still say, a player who slices his serves is a lower level player. A good player slices his serves and adds some topspin to bring the ball down to the court, allowing him to swing faster.
The extreme curve of a pure slice only bothers players who have never seen it.

Oh, I dunno.

I'm a 4.0, and I hit almost all of my serves as slices. I can hit a flatter serve, but why bother? In my experience, most players are quite proficient in hitting an average-for-level flatter serve, and the chance I will miss is higher.

I can also hit topspin, but the quality is not great so I use it only when my slice leaves me temporarily or the returner is hurting me and I need to try something new.

In fact, I tend to wonder why more 3.5-4.0 players don't learn a slice. It is really not that difficult. There are a lot of people who say they love hitting against pace. I have not met many people who claim to love hitting against spin, and even fewer enjoy returning serve whist wrapped in the side curtain.

Fuji 06-21-2013 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterST (Post 7522641)
If you ask a big server how they hit a slice serve, I've found that a lot of them say they carve around the outside. Even though high speed video shows this isn't the case, there must be something behind it.

What is your theory on why big servers get this feel?

I think part of it is they are indeed striking the right side of the ball rather than the back. anything else?

Well I think it's the best way to visualize it. As you mention it does show that players don't actually carve the ball, but the best way to learn a slice serve is to imagine "peeling the orange" or whatever analogy you like to think of it. Serving (for me at least) is all visualization on what I want to do with the ball. :)

-Fuji

bertrevert 06-22-2013 05:15 AM

Dwell time.

That, and constant repetition.

I would reckon that Pros having hit same shot so many times could get into micro-feel, persuasive thinking, visualisation. In order to get that ounce more heat or intent out of their shots they may (wilfully or not) feel a little more during the dwell time. So much so that they're attuned to what they think is going on during the instant of contact. Whether they are right or not is immaterial.

I am not saying Pros are not mere mortals and they have something special going on. Rather only that they are into what goes on in the contact instant and would seek to feel it all the more or have some effect upon that.

Maybe as a consequence of getting so many other variables down pat they/we are free to enjoy contact points.

We all see the ball big on some days, we can all feel the ball on the racquet some days better than others, or within a session, we can all hit a hot streak. I reckon at those times everything is singing from the same hymn sheet. One result can be that you just feel the ball all the more in the contact instant.

Btw, are you thinking of the Pat Rafter video where he talks about his serve? (I think it was on FYB) I think he talks about "carving" the ball. I watched that video and just walked around thinking how surprised I was that he came out with that. He glided over technics to very quickly talk about... "feel".

sureshs 06-22-2013 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterST (Post 7522641)
If you ask a big server how they hit a slice serve, I've found that a lot of them say they carve around the outside. Even though high speed video shows this isn't the case, there must be something behind it.

What is your theory on why big servers get this feel?

I think part of it is they are indeed striking the right side of the ball rather than the back. anything else?

Who are the pros who say this, apart from Pat Rafter recently in the WiH video?

HunterST 06-22-2013 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7523900)
Who are the pros who say this, apart from Pat Rafter recently in the WiH video?

Never said pros, just big servers. I know Jeff Salzenstein, a former pro, also has a video saying he carves the ball on slice serves, though.

LeeD 06-22-2013 10:09 AM

My apologies to CindyS......
A "good" server in the male ranks.
A WTA player slices up to top of the 7.0 level.
A good male server abandons the pure slice around the top of 4.5 level but some, like ArthurAshe, resurrected the slice to beat JimmyConnors in a GrandSlam tourney, then give up on it immediately after........knowing I was right..:)
A strong slice bother's no male player above 4.5.
A strong slice with topspin bother's even 7.0 men.

sureshs 06-22-2013 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterST (Post 7523917)
Never said pros, just big servers. I know Jeff Salzenstein, a former pro, also has a video saying he carves the ball on slice serves, though.

They might be carving more on the outside on out-wide serves.

LeeD 06-22-2013 11:47 AM

You guys need to read post 2 again, maybe even try to understand what I described.
Just like a topspin forehand, the loose grip allows the racket to deflect slightly, retaining impact for a slight millesecond longer, creating the "carve" effect, rather then the normal linear swingpath.

sureshs 06-22-2013 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bertrevert (Post 7523525)
Btw, are you thinking of the Pat Rafter video where he talks about his serve? (I think it was on FYB) I think he talks about "carving" the ball. I watched that video and just walked around thinking how surprised I was that he came out with that. He glided over technics to very quickly talk about... "feel".

A guy I know has incorporated whatever it was in that video into his own Pat Rafter serve after watching the video, and I have been on the receiving end of that serve a few times. He announces it ahead of time, and sure enough it behaves differently in the air and after the bounce. Strangely they did not bounce high but sort of skidded (but with top spin) and twice caught the bottom of my frame. I cannot vouch for whether he is doing what was in the video or it is his own creative interpretation, but it is different in some way.

LeeD 06-22-2013 11:53 AM

Your bud added more sidespin, less topspin, which is why the ball didn't bounce up over your shoulders.

sureshs 06-22-2013 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 7522987)
Oh, I dunno.

I'm a 4.0, and I hit almost all of my serves as slices. I can hit a flatter serve, but why bother? In my experience, most players are quite proficient in hitting an average-for-level flatter serve, and the chance I will miss is higher.

I can also hit topspin, but the quality is not great so I use it only when my slice leaves me temporarily or the returner is hurting me and I need to try something new.

In fact, I tend to wonder why more 3.5-4.0 players don't learn a slice. It is really not that difficult. There are a lot of people who say they love hitting against pace. I have not met many people who claim to love hitting against spin, and even fewer enjoy returning serve whist wrapped in the side curtain.

Just ignore some of LeeD's comments. The out-wide slice serve causes immense pain even at the top-10 ATP level.

LeeD 06-22-2013 12:01 PM

Said the guy with a 3.5 level man's serve to a lady with a 4.0 woman's serve.

kvan 06-22-2013 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7524157)
Just ignore some of LeeD's comments. The out-wide slice serve causes immense pain even at the top-10 ATP level.

Who DOESN'T struggle against a serve out wide and a punishing groundstroke/volley to the open court?

Of course, there are people. Spaniards come to mind.

LeeD 06-22-2013 12:26 PM

AFTER Ashe beat Connors, during an interview, he said he had to relearn a pure wide slice to serve a low ball to Connor's 2hbh. He'd abandoned the pure slice years earlier, relying on a top/slice that bounce high to an opponent's rightie forehand, or lefty backhand.
That pure slice serve was specific for that particular match vs Connors.
Ashe lost subsequent matches to Connors because Connors adapted to hit a low ball wide 2hbh very short angled CC.

sureshs 06-22-2013 01:17 PM

Ashe and Connors stories are old and not relevant any more.

Ballinbob 06-23-2013 07:07 AM

I don't know... I have to go with LeeD on this one. I almost never see a pure slice at the 4.5-5.0 levels. It's a very rare thing to see.

People at this level have big enough forehands where they can handle that serve with ease.

Hitting a slower spin serve to a 4.5-5.0 forehand isn't a good idea for most unless you're using it as a change up every once in a blue moon

pvaudio 06-23-2013 09:09 AM

He is correct. At the highest levels, pure slice is fairly worthless. That amount of spin is purely predictable, and since all of your energy went into slicing it, it ain't moving that fast either. Now, if you get some pop and top into it, that's a lot more effective. See Federer serving out wide and you'll see that subtle arc is what gives people so much trouble.

sureshs 06-23-2013 09:23 AM

All the top guys use top-slice.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:24 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006 - Tennis Warehouse