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-   -   wrist flick for topspin with semiwestern grip (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=468694)

azrael201 07-01-2013 05:18 AM

wrist flick for topspin with semiwestern grip
 
I read about how Federer has an amazing wrist flick and wonder is it from hyper supinating the wrist on setup? I use to do this and it feels uncomfortable when I had a shorter swing but now I have a full loopy swing and wasn't sure if I wanted to invest in adding that extra motion to my swing.

Lukhas 07-01-2013 06:29 AM

Do not confuse windshield-wiper finish with wrist flick. The wrist is laid back at contact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKtZudSpFMg

Topspin Shot 07-01-2013 07:40 AM

No; the supination is passive. Sign up for virtual tennis academy and watch Heath Waters's video on the stretch shortening cycle. That's what Federer is doing.

LeeD 07-01-2013 08:46 AM

Instead of "wrist flick", use a reverse finish, lifting hard with the shoulders and back.

azrael201 07-01-2013 10:36 AM

don't think i understand what reverse finish means but the video at VTA was pretty good except didn't really explain the stretch shortening cycle. i had to google that.

Lukhas 07-01-2013 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azrael201 (Post 7553220)
don't think i understand what reverse finish means but the video at VTA was pretty good except didn't really explain the stretch shortening cycle. i had to google that.

Forehand with a finish over the head instead of across the body or over the shoulders. There are only two know pro players who do that: Gasquet and Nadal. Forget about the reverse forehand.

RetroSpin 07-01-2013 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukhas (Post 7553278)
Forehand with a finish over the head instead of across the body or over the shoulders. There are only two know pro players who do that: Gasquet and Nadal. Forget about the reverse forehand.

Plenty of pros use it, Sharapova for one. Lindsey Davenport used it and it is taught by her longtime coach Robert Lansdorf.

azrael201 07-01-2013 11:07 AM

i found the video you guys meant on SSC, however i have a question on timing. i use to open up my chest and try to lead with my shoulder to drag my wrist forward trying to mimic roddick's explosive forehand. my coach told me i was opening too soon and now i try to keep my left hand out to prevent myself from opening too soon. i feel like to get more power i need to open up fast and pull that racquet to achieve maximum SSC or ulnar deviation

LeeD 07-01-2013 11:08 AM

Maria, Serena, and lots of pros use the reverse forehand finish on seemingly 1/4th of their forehands, during match play. During practice, not so much.

Lukhas 07-01-2013 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RetroSpin (Post 7553359)
Plenty of pros use it, Sharapova for one. Lindsey Davenport used it and it is taught by her longtime coach Robert Lansdorf.

It's not a reverse forehand. It's an old-school forehand with over the shoulder finish, which had a flatter direction. Nadal hits a reverse forehand. It doesn't look even nearly the same. EDIT: Got confused with Gasquet thouhg. It's a WW finish, but his finish is so loopy it looks like a reverse forehand, but it isn't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK9OZ6FR86g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0uCQBiH2Ko

Cheetah 07-01-2013 11:44 PM

what are you guys talking about? every wta and atp player hits a reverse forehand. that includes gasquet and sharapova.

azrael201 07-02-2013 05:46 AM

I think you guys are really focusing on this reverse forehand...any thoughts about my question above?

johnchung907 07-02-2013 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azrael201 (Post 7555439)
I think you guys are really focusing on this reverse forehand...any thoughts about my question above?

Ha, if you use semi-western, don't even dream that you can do a federer flick. Maybe if you had a modified eastern like him there's a possibility that I could help (I also use a modified eastern)

Kilco 07-02-2013 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnchung907 (Post 7555885)
Ha, if you use semi-western, don't even dream that you can do a federer flick. Maybe if you had a modified eastern like him there's a possibility that I could help (I also use a modified eastern)

Of course you can. Dont listen to this guy.

JohnYandell 07-02-2013 05:16 PM

Love that "wrist flick" term. Actually got into an argument at a presentation I was doing with none other than Johnny Mac about it years ago--suffice it to say he was unpersuaded by evidence, and is (still) one of the main progenitors of this highly misleading term! I showed him a video of Agassi's forehand with the wrist still laid back at contact. But it was like trying to tell someone the wall was blue when they were absolutely certain it was white... still love you John, no one is perfect.

And so that discussion has always gone...disagreement and more disagreement...the term I am pretty sure is destined for immortality. But I don't think it contributes much to understanding what happens in high level forehands.

If you study the players in high speed you see that for Fed, or Agassi, or Delpo, or Jo Willie, or any player with a moderate grip, the vast majority of all forehands are hit with the wrist laid back.

The angle of the lay back can change from the start of the forward swing and decrease at contact. But again in the huge majority of cases it's still laid back well after the hit.

Some players and coaches believe that this forward flexion is a key to power or spin and an example of that mythical, epic, invisible and misunderstood term the "stretch shorten cycle."

As I understand the work of Brian Gordon though this isn't actually correct--the real stretch shorten cycle is something happening in the shoulder muscles, as a function of body and backswing position at the start of the forward swing...

The wrist angle at contact, in reality, seems to be about positioning the racket head to hit the ball directionally. On a crosscourt from a wide position it will come around more, closer to neutral. In this sense it acts like a hinge.

When the hinge motion is substantial the movement can contribute to racket head speed. But if you look at inside balls--the majority of pro forehands--the wrist hardly flexes if at all and can actually become more laid back after the hit. So it's not some conscious attempt to flex or flick--more the natural relaxed movement of the joint as part of a specific swing path.

Now the other motion involving the wrist is the rotation of the hand, arm and racket. When this motion is somewhat to very extreme it's usually called the windshield wiper. But it's a component of all forehands to a greater or lesser extent. There is still rotation of the upper arm, forearm, wrist, and racket in counterclockwise direction on an old style "flatish" eastern forehand--think Tim Henman.

Where Federer broke the mold was in combining a grip that is still close to eastern with the radical hand and arm rotation of the more extreme forehands--a gorgeous blend of classical and modern.

And since the wrist is attached to the arm (one could only hope...) there is up to 180 degrees of counterclockwise rotation (or even more sometimes...) of the wrist in a big wiper motion.

Call that wrist flick if you wish. But it's being driven by the rotation of the upper arm in the shoulder joint. This rotation from the shoulder can be very fast--and that's why the wiper can generate so much racket head speed and why Federer can hit so much spin with that grip.

For skilled players who really do have the more foundational elements of turn and extension, the wiper is very viable situationally or even as more of a norm at higher levels. And now with poly this is more true than ever and even applicable at times at lower levels if those same fundamentals are in place.

azrael201 07-02-2013 08:20 PM

Thanks for the reply that is a nice explanation. I for some reason thought fed had a semi western.

So regarding leading with shoulder does that mean it is good to open up fast to whip the arm and wrist to the ball?

JohnYandell 07-02-2013 08:26 PM

I'd think of the preparation--full turn is critical--and then leading with the hand. It's true the hips and shoulders go first. That's because the body knows how to use them to move the hand. Often when players consciously try to activate the hips or shoulders they get way too open too soon.

TennisCJC 07-03-2013 07:11 PM

I agree with everything JohnY said above so it must be right. I don't always agree with JohnY but this is spot on.

TennisCJC 07-03-2013 07:13 PM

wrist flick is garbage and should not be consciously worked into your stroke. Passive laid back wrist before, during and a bit after contact is key to consistency. Wrist/hand used for direction and feel. Legs, hips, shoulder, forearm used to generate pace and stroke pattern.

azrael201 07-03-2013 07:35 PM

i like the way you put it, i def try to exaggerate the shoulder turn. thanks john


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