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-   -   Cahill/Agassi: Best two handed bh's ARE NOT like left handed fhs (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=468928)

HunterST 07-03-2013 06:47 AM

Cahill/Agassi: Best two handed bh's ARE NOT like left handed fhs
 
I've heard Agassi say it before and Cahill just said it during the Wimbledon coverage. They say the players with the most powerful 2 handed backhands use mostly their dominant side making it more like a one hander with the non dominant hand there to guide.

I think most agree that Bjorn Borg used mostly the right side as well.

Could the conventional wisdom be wrong?

Mongolmike 07-03-2013 07:08 AM

I agree with Cahill. I think everyone with a 2H BH is either right hand dominant, left hand dominant or equal. Meaning, everyone is different... each can be effective depending upon the individual.

rkelley 07-03-2013 07:25 AM

Borg was certainly a right side dominated stroke with the left hand as an assist. However unlike his forehand which was a prototypical modern forehand, I have never seen another high level player use his backhand. In the current age of big spin, big power tennis I think it's fair to ask if his backhand motion could produce the power and pace needed for today's game. I think the answer is YES, but I'm not 100% sure.

Overall, I honestly don't know. If you watch the 2007 USO QF between Roddick and Federer, Agassi is in the booth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcZFVQCfOQg). Early in the match Agassi comments on Roddick's backhand and talks about the right hand dominated thing. Agassi certainly had an incredible backhand.

For me personally, I've had the best luck going the left hand forehand route. It's allowed me to get more whip into the motion, which means more racquet head speed, which means more pace and spin. I've tried the form to let my right hand dominate the stroke but, for me, I could just never get it to work as well. The power and spin levels just aren't there. Not saying it can't be done, but it didn't work for me.

President 07-03-2013 07:42 AM

Djokovic looks pretty left hand dominant to me and his backhand is pretty much just as good as Agassi's.

TennisCJC 07-03-2013 10:46 AM

Matts Wilander is another example of a R hand dominate player. Matts also released his L hand frequently on the follow-thru which is a lot like Borg.

I have hit a 2 HBH for over 30 years now and still often debate this issue.

To me, a 2 HBH - even the great ones like Agassi, Safin, and Djoko - are not like a FH and they are not like a normal backhand either. A 2 HBH is like a 2 HBH.

2 HBH is like a FH a little bit in the follow-thru but even the best pro 2 HBH still don't have the WW follow-thru like the modern backhand.

2 HBH is like FH in these ways:

1. For right handed player, the L hand dominates the follow-thru like the dominate R hand does on the FH.
2. Shoulders open up on follow-thru which is unlike a 1 HBH.

2 HBH is not like a FH in these ways:

1. prep phase is different on 2 HBH than a dominate side FH - most 2 handers lead back with the racket head and have a fairly compact take back. Most FH lead back with the elbow and keep the racket head closer to the net than the elbow.
2. most 2 HBH hit from neutral and even slightly closed stances far more frequently than a normal FH. But, you can hit in a semi-open stance successfully on a 2 HBH. Djoko hits most of his 2 HBH from a fairly neutral to slightly closed stance when he has time but he this almost all FH from a semi-open stance.

doctor dennis 07-03-2013 11:11 AM

I've watched Ferrer many times and think he may have a right hand dominated 2HBH. He let's go quite early with his left hand which is why I think this.
Could be wrong though.

WildVolley 07-03-2013 11:59 AM

On a long thread in the past, we tried to analyze the modern 2hbh. Seems that players such as Djokovic are left-hand dominant on the 2hbh, so it is definitely not like a 1hbh with the off-hand along for the ride. But that other hand on the racket definitely causes it to look different than a left-handed fh.

The takeback is different from a left-handed fh, with much less of a loop and less "pat-the-dog." Djokovic will often hit it from the open stance when pressured, but most of the players are still preferring to hit the 2hbh from a closed or neutral stance. Venus Williams is one of the few players who shows a preference to hit her 2hbh from an open stance.

I guess the relevant question would be to what extent it is like a 2h forehand, which is a fairly rare shot these days.

WildVolley 07-03-2013 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctor dennis (Post 7559675)
I've watched Ferrer many times and think he may have a right hand dominated 2HBH. He let's go quite early with his left hand which is why I think this.
Could be wrong though.

I'm not a fan of Ferrer's bh which he hits like a girl.:twisted:

What I mean by that is that he hits much closer to his body with both arms bent. Most of the big 2hbh players tend to hit with the top arm straight or close to straight (Djokovic, Gulbis, Nalbandian, etc.). Ferrer also separates the hands which shortens the racket much in the same way that Roddick did by choking up on his bh.

Lukhas 07-03-2013 12:46 PM

^Give him a Wilson Blade 98 2013. The handle is freakishly short, I'm happy I don't hit a two hander with that frame. Yes I have really big hands but yet it's short. Babolat's have a really long grip or so I experienced on a PST Ltd. Plus.

From what I know, I feel the investment of the "off hand" is really high on a two hander. That's also why I don't hit one: I'd have to strengthen my left arm to correctly control it, or it flies on the fence without bouncing.

BevelDevil 07-03-2013 04:43 PM

Nadal is also very front-arm dominant, at least for the first-half of the stroke. He keeps his front-arm very straight and appears to be pulling the racket forward. If you watch some of his HD videos, you can also see the muscles on his front arm bulging on the forward swing.


Quote:

Originally Posted by TennisCJC (Post 7559482)

2 HBH is not like a FH in these ways:

1. prep phase is different on 2 HBH than a dominate side FH - most 2 handers lead back with the racket head and have a fairly compact take back. Most FH lead back with the elbow and keep the racket head closer to the net than the elbow.
2. most 2 HBH hit from neutral and even slightly closed stances far more frequently than a normal FH. But, you can hit in a semi-open stance successfully on a 2 HBH. Djoko hits most of his 2 HBH from a fairly neutral to slightly closed stance when he has time but he this almost all FH from a semi-open stance.

To this I would add that the weight transfer on the closed stance 2hbh is much more similar to the 1hbh than the typical forehand.


Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterST (Post 7558256)
Cahill just said it during the Wimbledon coverage. They say the players with the most powerful 2 handed backhands use mostly their dominant side making it more like a one hander with the non dominant hand there to guide.

I think most agree that Bjorn Borg used mostly the right side as well.

Could the conventional wisdom be wrong?

What match did he say it during? Remember the score/time?

Btw, some other poster in an earlier thread mentioned that he observed Russian coaches telling their players to "pull" with their right. I wonder if maybe just the U.S. has it "wrong" on the 2hbh...

Thepowerofchoice 07-03-2013 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterST (Post 7558256)
I've heard Agassi say it before and Cahill just said it during the Wimbledon coverage. They say the players with the most powerful 2 handed backhands use mostly their dominant side making it more like a one hander with the non dominant hand there to guide.

I think most agree that Bjorn Borg used mostly the right side as well.

Could the conventional wisdom be wrong?

I met Agassi last Nov in Anaheim, CA back stage for the Powershares Series Championship and asked him about that. He told me to use more right hand for 2handedbh (I'm a right handed).

I'm not going to contradict one of the best players with one of the best 2hbh...BUT I'm sure some of the people on here may disagree with him :)

thejackal 07-03-2013 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkelley (Post 7558396)
Borg was certainly a right side dominated stroke with the left hand as an assist. However unlike his forehand which was a prototypical modern forehand, I have never seen another high level player use his backhand. In the current age of big spin, big power tennis I think it's fair to ask if his backhand motion could produce the power and pace needed for today's game. I think the answer is YES, but I'm not 100% sure.

Overall, I honestly don't know. If you watch the 2007 USO QF between Roddick and Federer, Agassi is in the booth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcZFVQCfOQg). Early in the match Agassi comments on Roddick's backhand and talks about the right hand dominated thing. Agassi certainly had an incredible backhand.

For me personally, I've had the best luck going the left hand forehand route. It's allowed me to get more whip into the motion, which means more racquet head speed, which means more pace and spin. I've tried the form to let my right hand dominate the stroke but, for me, I could just never get it to work as well. The power and spin levels just aren't there. Not saying it can't be done, but it didn't work for me.

Mikhail youzhny, actually

WhiteStripes 07-04-2013 12:51 AM

For what it's worth, when I was a kid at Bollettieri's during the late 80s, I was taught a more right-arm dominant two-hander with it initiating and pulling through the shot, with the left hand coming more in play at contact and at extension/follow through. I don't think there's one necessarily "right" method, just whatever the particular player feels comfortable with.

Raul_SJ 07-04-2013 05:51 AM

For a 2 handed backhand, is the top hand always holding a forehand grip (most commonly SW)?

And what grip is the bottom hand holding?

If it's a "right-arm dominant" 2 hander, will the bottom grip more likely to be a forehand grip?

Lukhas 07-04-2013 06:05 AM

^Continental for the bottom hand, E for the top hand. Can vary between Conti and E for the bottom hand, and between E and SW for the top hand. Find what you're most at ease with between those standards.

morandi 07-04-2013 11:16 AM

The less you think and analyze what your hands are doing on the two hander the better off I think you are. My two hander became a weapon when I focused on my weight transfer and contact point. Just saying...

JohnYandell 07-04-2013 03:13 PM

If you look at video there are several hitting arm configurations which explains the variety of thinking above.

Agassi and Nadal are straight/straight at contact. This version requires at least a mild backhand grip with the bottom hand. If those two guys let go with the rear hand you could imagine them hitting a flat, mild continental grip flatish one hander with ease.

Most women (and some men) are at the opposite extreme. Bent/Bent. The top arm looks like a double bend forehand. The bottom are is also bent around 90 degrees at the elbow Some of these players--Venus for example--have a grip shift with the bottom hand that probably doesn't rise to the level of even a slight continental--more like an old style eastern forehand--think Don Budge. This version is the most left arm dependent.

Most men like Djok or Andy are Bent/Straight. This version relies on the bottom arm to initiate followed by a push with the top arm. These guys all have continental to mild eastern grips with the bottom arm. Makes sense because the initial pull is critical. Roddick's big weakness was his backhand was Bent/Straight but he had a very weak (Venus like) grip with the bottom hand.

All of these combinations are viable at all levels--it's some combo of natural inclination and correct technical input.

bhupaes 07-04-2013 07:04 PM

Agreed, there are many valid ways to hit a 2HBH. My preferred way (as a righty) is to use the left hand as in a left handed forehand and execute footwork accordingly, while using the right hand for control and coordination (mainly). I use a continental grip for my right hand, so it is very hard for me to use it for power, anyway.

vsbabolat 07-05-2013 05:07 AM

Safin had one of the greatest backhands and he was pretty left hand dominate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYW7DaiX6hk

This is a interesting take on the 2 handed backhand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYW7DaiX6hk

EP1998 07-05-2013 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnYandell (Post 7563351)
If you look at video there are several hitting arm configurations which explains the variety of thinking above.

Agassi and Nadal are straight/straight at contact. This version requires at least a mild backhand grip with the bottom hand. If those two guys let go with the rear hand you could imagine them hitting a flat, mild continental grip flatish one hander with ease.

Most women (and some men) are at the opposite extreme. Bent/Bent. The top arm looks like a double bend forehand. The bottom are is also bent around 90 degrees at the elbow Some of these players--Venus for example--have a grip shift with the bottom hand that probably doesn't rise to the level of even a slight continental--more like an old style eastern forehand--think Don Budge. This version is the most left arm dependent.

Most men like Djok or Andy are Bent/Straight. This version relies on the bottom arm to initiate followed by a push with the top arm. These guys all have continental to mild eastern grips with the bottom arm. Makes sense because the initial pull is critical. Roddick's big weakness was his backhand was Bent/Straight but he had a very weak (Venus like) grip with the bottom hand.

All of these combinations are viable at all levels--it's some combo of natural inclination and correct technical input.

Great post, thank you.


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