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-   -   Top spin production in ground strokes -- namely calling for Ash (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=472144)

10isfreak 08-01-2013 09:55 AM

Top spin production in ground strokes -- namely calling for Ash
 
As I stated times a many, I subscribe to the group who considers that the angle of your string bed at contact is the main factor influencing the production of spin in ground strokes. I got this from tennisspeed, if you want my source. I might break down my thought process later on, but it's not my main intention here... I want to know about people on this forum since one blog is too limited as a source of information and I might actually be very wrong.

I called for you Ash, if happen to stop by, because I wished you had some space to reply to me or to explain your position. You are well known here for your great inputs and good manners, so while we might all enjoy your insights, you wouldn't highjack another thread to explain... hence this space.


For everyone, the question is:What produces top spin in forehand and backhand ground strokes?

sureshs 08-01-2013 10:06 AM

I will respond since some people call me SurAsh.

So I assume this is about the contribution of racket face angle versus swing path.

High speed video shows that pros like Federer have their racket face perpendicular to the ground or slightly closed at contact, and they seem to maintain this from before to after contact. This supports the idea of the swing path being the main contributor to spin, and racket face angle determining the launch angle and hence depth.

However, even a slightly closed face can have big consequences at high swing speeds, and I have seen other pros who seem to rely on some wrist movement also for adding spin, pointing to the importance of racket face angle. I also think a more closed face can create more top spin and bring the ball down faster, and I think this is because of an increase in dwell time.

So yeah curious to know how this is resolved.

newpball 08-01-2013 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10isfreak (Post 7628227)
I got this from tennisspeed, if you want my source.

Could you provide a link because I could not find anything that confirms what you claim.

10isfreak 08-01-2013 10:26 AM

Suresh and newpball, this is the article which convinced me:
http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/05/...nd-part-1.html

The string bed is systematically closed beyond the vertical plane, mostly between 10 and 20 degrees, and the swing path prior contact is always pretty shallow -- in the example he gave, Federer and Nadal both swung at 18 degrees from the horizontal plane.

As for the angle of the racket face, it opens up (becomes less closed, actually) as you swing forward -- the best pros start with their racket face parallel to the ground.

Tight Lines 08-01-2013 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10isfreak (Post 7628227)
As I stated times a many, I subscribe to the group who considers that the angle of your string bed at contact is the main factor influencing the production of spin in ground strokes. I got this from tennisspeed, if you want my source. I might break down my thought process later on, but it's not my main intention here... I want to know about people on this forum since one blog is too limited as a source of information and I might actually be very wrong.

I called for you Ash, if happen to stop by, because I wished you had some space to reply to me or to explain your position. You are well known here for your great inputs and good manners, so while we might all enjoy your insights, you wouldn't highjack another thread to explain... hence this space.


For everyone, the question is:What produces top spin in forehand and backhand ground strokes?

I don't understand this question. What creates top spin is a complex interplay among the racket angle, swing path and speed of the swing. You can't just isolate one factor. They are all related.

Harry

TimeSpiral 08-01-2013 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10isfreak (Post 7628227)
As I stated times a many, I subscribe to the group who considers that the angle of your string bed at contact is the main factor influencing the production of spin in ground strokes.

Snip!

For everyone, the question is:What produces top spin in forehand and backhand ground strokes?

When talking about topspin, the angle of the string bed is incidental--influencing the swing path.

5263 08-01-2013 10:49 AM

I think he means the primary TS influence.

My take is the power top spins rely more on racket face, whereas
the roller type topspins are more about vertical swing path with a
log of leg augmentation.

10isfreak 08-01-2013 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tight Lines (Post 7628351)
I don't understand this question. What creates top spin is a complex interplay among the racket angle, swing path and speed of the swing. You can't just isolate one factor. They are all related.

Harry

Yes, but given what I wrote, you'd think it's possible to hit a top spin drive with a downward launching angle or a backspin lob by hitting upward.

TimeSpiral 08-01-2013 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10isfreak (Post 7628315)
Suresh and newpball, this is the article which convinced me:
http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/05/...nd-part-1.html

The string bed is systematically closed beyond the vertical plane, mostly between 10 and 20 degrees, and the swing path prior contact is always pretty shallow -- in the example he gave, Federer and Nadal both swung at 18 degrees from the horizontal plane.

As for the angle of the racket face, it opens up (becomes less closed, actually) as you swing forward -- the best pros start with their racket face parallel to the ground.

That article gets a big *shrug*. Thousands of words correlating some lines on some graphics to the production of topspin. I know you took away a lot from that article, so this might seem flippant, but it truly is a lot about nothing.

Putting topspin on a tennis ball is super easy, and an even easier concept. Use the racquet to spin the ball about it's X axis. Simple as that. However you can, or want to produce that effect, is fine, as long as you're happy with the result.

He could have shrunk that article down to this and accomplished the same thing: practice tennis for 8 hours a day and you're on your way to hitting topspin like a pro! Sounds flippant, again, but I'm serious. Even the most detailed understanding of rotational physics will increase your potential tennis skill by a mere fraction of what more practice would do.

I like to know technique as much as anyone here, don't get me wrong, but you're way over-thinking this one.

newpball 08-01-2013 11:02 AM

Read the article, I think it is doomed to confuse more than to clarify anything.

Also what happens before and after impact is completely irrelevant. A player can make seven full somersaults after impact but it would not do anything.

Ash_Smith 08-01-2013 11:16 AM

My understanding of the relationship between path angle and speed comes from a biomechanist and coach I worked with for many years from France who worked for the FFT and ATP and also from my own empirical evidence from years of working with players on court. Essentially for the same swing path (assuming the same contact point on the ball) a more closed face will create a lower launch angle than a vertical racquet face.

Obviously as Tight Lines says, all three variables are inter linked, but in my experience racquet face determines launch angle and path determines spin (that is to say has a greater bearing over).


Here comes the (not very) science bit..!

If a ball hit with heavy topspin hits your racquet which is stationary and in a vertical (neutral) position the ball will leave the racquet above the angle of incidence due to the spin. If you hit said ball with a low to high path bit maintained the racquet face as neutral you would impart counter spin, but the launch angle is still higher. Repeat with a closed racquet angle and the launch angle is lower.

As for tennispeed - happy that he has "proven" that the pro's have a closed face at contact. Not convinced he has proven that this factor is the major contributor for topspin production, at least above racquet path.

cheers

TimeSpiral 08-01-2013 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith (Post 7628509)
My understanding of the relationship between path angle and speed comes from a biomechanist and coach I worked with for many years from France who worked for the FFT and ATP and also from my own empirical evidence from years of working with players on court. Essentially for the same swing path (assuming the same contact point on the ball) a more closed face will create a lower launch angle than a vertical racquet face.

Obviously as Tight Lines says, all three variables are inter linked, but in my experience racquet face determines launch angle and path determines spin (that is to say has a greater bearing over).


Here comes the (not very) science bit..!

If a ball hit with heavy topspin hits your racquet which is stationary and in a vertical (neutral) position the ball will leave the racquet above the angle of incidence due to the spin. If you hit said ball with a low to high path bit maintained the racquet face as neutral you would impart counter spin, but the launch angle is still higher. Repeat with a closed racquet angle and the launch angle is lower.

As for tennispeed - happy that he has "proven" that the pro's have a closed face at contact. Not convinced he has proven that this factor is the major contributor for topspin production, at least above racquet path.

cheers

When getting into the weeds of this--which I think is unnecessary in the context of playing better topspin tennis--it is important to point this out: By maintaining the same swing path, and only changing your racquet face, your are actually changing the part of the ball you're hitting/interacting with.

And I agree; the tennispeed article is underwhelming to the point of being worthless.

Ash_Smith 08-01-2013 11:33 AM

From the LTA coach education resource...

Ball Characteristic: Height

• Path:
A more level path will keep the ball on the same height. A low to high path will send the ball higher. A high to low path will send the ball lower.
• Angle:
Opening the racket face angle will send the ball higher. Closing it more will send the ball lower.
• Speed:
Increasing the racket speed can also increase the height of a shot if the racket face and path are angled 45 degrees or above. Decreasing the speed lowers the height of the ball.

Characteristic: Topspin

The amount of topspin can be increased or decreased by changing:
• The racket path
(a more upward path will increase the spin)
• The racket speed at impact
(more racket speed, will increase the amount of topspin)

(Language is simplified (as tennis coaches are a bit simple :D) but is based on research evidence from Cambridge University Cavendish Laboratory and the Institute of Physics)

rkelley 08-01-2013 11:45 AM

10isfreak, thanks for starting this thread. I was actually thinking about this as well.

As for the question, I'm in the same camp as Ash. Basically, swing path for topspin, racquet angle for launch angle. There is interaction to be sure, but when I hit I need to keep it as simple as possible. When I want more topspin I try to get a larger component of the swing's velocity to go up and for flatter shots I hit through the ball more. I use the racquet angle to adjust the launch angle, which is what I'm specifically looking at as I hit.

After that it's up to nature and God as to where the ball lands.

TimeSpiral 08-01-2013 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkelley (Post 7628611)
10isfreak, thanks for starting this thread. I was actually thinking about this as well.

As for the question, I'm in the same camp as Ash. Basically, swing path for topspin, racquet angle for launch angle. There is interaction to be sure, but when I hit I need to keep it as simple as possible. When I want more topspin I try to get a larger component of the swing's velocity to go up and for flatter shots I hit through the ball more. I use the racquet angle to adjust the launch angle, which is what I'm specifically looking at as I hit.

After that it's up to nature and God as to where the ball lands.

As the ball is flying through the air, after I strike it, I'm able to will the ball onto the line. For instace: Ball's in the air. I think: line--and so it happens.

Ball hit the top of the tape, I slow down time--Matrix style--point my hand forward, and simply will it to land on my opponent's court.

Nature? God? Pfft. Once you're mastered racquet face angle, you gain Neo-like control over the game of tennis. It's awesome.

rkelley 08-01-2013 12:10 PM

OK. So now I know why I suck.

RetroSpin 08-01-2013 01:21 PM

Nadal hits the vast majority of his FHs off the bottom half of the racquet face, not the center. To me, that is far more interesting than the face angle debate.

bhupaes 08-01-2013 01:50 PM

I think the angle of the racquet face mainly helps with control. The exact amount should depend on one's intended trajectory and depth, amount of topspin, and amount of pace.

5263 08-01-2013 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RetroSpin (Post 7628880)
Nadal hits the vast majority of his FHs off the bottom half of the racquet face, not the center. To me, that is far more interesting than the face angle debate.

but they are very related though :)

5263 08-01-2013 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5263 (Post 7628400)
I think he means the primary TS influence.

My take is the flatter, power topspins rely more on racket face, whereas
the roller type topspins are more about vertical swing path with a
log of leg augmentation.

Come on Ash you know this is correct :)


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