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-   -   attention of tricky (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=483043)

chip and charge 11-15-2013 02:28 AM

attention of tricky
 
Tricky,
You out there? Wanted to get your thoughts on why we haven't seen more straight arm forehands, considering the the success, superiority of the ones owned by Fed, Nadal, Del Potro and Verdasco. Also, any thoughts on the next evolutionary step in the FH. Really appreciate all your keen insight into the game in the past.

SystemicAnomaly 11-15-2013 05:10 AM

Not seen tricky around these parts for quite some time (it's been nearly a year). He resurfaces every once in a while and then goes back into hiding.

Many players find the straight-arm FH a bit more difficult to control. Most of us do it only on high contact points. Perhaps the next gen, who've grown up watching Roger & Rafa, will produce more straight-arm FH pros.

KillerServe 11-15-2013 10:23 AM

Is it really a matter of control or simply timing? Since a straight arm implies having to make contact much further out in front.

SystemicAnomaly 11-15-2013 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerServe (Post 7902851)
Is it really a matter of control or simply timing? Since a straight arm implies having to make contact much further out in front.

While most of Federer's contact are pretty far in front this is not always the case for Nadal. He hits quite a high percentage of reverse finishes. Many, probably not all, of these reverse finishes are done so because his contact is late.

bhupaes 11-15-2013 01:16 PM

As one's grip becomes more western, the more supinated the arm becomes at the bottom of the forward swing (aka the slot). It's a bigger strain to straighten out a supinated arm than a neutral or pronated arm, so I guess the natural tendency for those with grips tending to western is to use a bent arm. Obviously, this is not a hard and fast rule, and there are players who behave differently (you know who they are).

Djoker91 11-15-2013 01:32 PM

Well honestly, due to the success of players that use "double bend", and how the double bend is more comfortable and easy to time as was mentioned, I think this will be the mainstream. It's not because of the double bend were seeing the likes of Novak, murray, ferrer, and others have success, it's the incredible defense and speed. Emphasis will be place on these first. Then as long as the forehand can put away a winner when needed, and make good enough placement to dictate a point, that's all will be asked of the forehand. Murray and Novak don't have killer forehands like nadal or delpo. But their backhand has emphasis and their defense does. As long as the forehand can do its job when needed their fine and win many matches. If delpo or nadals forehand crumbles, their game done. IE nadal soderling in the French. Everything falling short for nadal forehand and robin went to town on them. But when it's on they are unbearable to play. I think the new wave of players don't want to be so dependent on a single shot. Were all seeing how Isner is dependent on that serve. Sometimes painful to watch. You break him once and he's lost. Against a nobody at that.

bhupaes 11-15-2013 01:41 PM

Going back to what tricky had said some time ago:

You can try starting your backswing with a pronated arm with the racquet pointing slightly forwards, like Federer does. It will be much easier to keep it straight at that point. You will have to flip your arm quickly into a supinated position just before the forward swing to point your racquet backwards, and maybe it will be easier to keep your arm straight with this sequence.

That said, I would recommend doing what comes naturally. I don't have either the strength or enough fast twitch muscles in my arm to do all the things that ATP pros do so quickly, so in my takeback, my arm is not as pronated and my racquet is partially pointing backwards already. In other words, if I try to flip as quickly as Federer or Nadal, I will goof up on fast balls more often than is good for me! It may work for you/others differently. Please don't blame me if you forget how to hit your forehand as a result! :)

Topspin Shot 11-15-2013 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhupaes (Post 7903261)
Going back to what tricky had said some time ago:

You can try starting your backswing with a pronated arm with the racquet pointing slightly forwards, like Federer does. It will be much easier to keep it straight at that point. You will have to flip your arm quickly into a supinated position just before the forward swing to point your racquet backwards, and maybe it will be easier to keep your arm straight with this sequence.

That said, I would recommend doing what comes naturally. I don't have either the strength or enough fast twitch muscles in my arm to do all the things that ATP pros do so quickly, so in my takeback, my arm is not as pronated and my racquet is partially pointing backwards already. In other words, if I try to flip as quickly as Federer or Nadal, I will goof up on fast balls more often than is good for me! It may work for you/others differently. Please don't blame me if you forget how to hit your forehand as a result! :)

I would not recommend flipping the racket face no matter what type of forehand you're trying to hit. Federer, for instance, does not flip the racket face; he keeps the plane the same throughout the contact zone.

bhupaes 11-15-2013 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topspin Shot (Post 7903448)
I would not recommend flipping the racket face no matter what type of forehand you're trying to hit. Federer, for instance, does not flip the racket face; he keeps the plane the same throughout the contact zone.

I think you are mis-reading my post. "The flip" is a term that evolved on this board (or maybe it came from somewhere else) to describe the quick arm motion Federer and other pros seem to be making with the arm to point the butt of the racquet towards the ball before pulling it forward. It applies to the whole racquet, which goes from pointing partially sideways to pointing backward (as it should, before the forward swing starts). It is definitely not a "flipping" of the racquet face!

Topspin Shot 11-15-2013 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhupaes (Post 7903477)
I think you are mis-reading my post. "The flip" is a term that evolved on this board (or maybe it came from somewhere else) to describe the quick arm motion Federer and other pros seem to be making with the arm to point the butt of the racquet towards the ball before pulling it forward. It applies to the whole racquet, which goes from pointing partially sideways to pointing backward (as it should, before the forward swing starts). It is definitely not a "flipping" of the racquet face!

I did misread your post. I still don't think the flipping motion is any more abrupt than any other part of the swing though, even though it isn't the one I thought you were talking about.

bhupaes 11-15-2013 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topspin Shot (Post 7903481)
I did misread your post. I still don't think the flipping motion is any more abrupt than any other part of the swing though, even though it isn't the one I thought you were talking about.

Believe me, it is brutally fast. Because the pros do it at the very last moment, as the ball is nearing the contact point. That's how they get the ungodly RHS.

Topspin Shot 11-15-2013 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhupaes (Post 7903647)
Believe me, it is brutally fast. Because the pros do it at the very last moment, as the ball is nearing the contact point. That's how they get the ungodly RHS.

The acceleration to contact is brutally fast. The flip isn't where the pros focus on racket speed. Maybe I'm being too nitpicky, but I have seen players actively try to flip the racket fast and at the last moment, and the results are, well, brutal.

corners 11-15-2013 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhupaes (Post 7903477)
I think you are mis-reading my post. "The flip" is a term that evolved on this board (or maybe it came from somewhere else) to describe the quick arm motion Federer and other pros seem to be making with the arm to point the butt of the racquet towards the ball before pulling it forward. It applies to the whole racquet, which goes from pointing partially sideways to pointing backward (as it should, before the forward swing starts). It is definitely not a "flipping" of the racquet face!

The flip you're talking about is not done actively by Federer; it happens as a result of him beginning the forward swing with the racquet face closed. Having the racquet face closed at the end of the backswing with an eastern grip is only possible with a pronated forearm. Pulling from that position results in the weight of the racquet rapidly supinating the forearm and extending the wrist as the arm and hand are dragged forward from the shoulder. These forearm and wrist motions are passive, not active, and the result is that the weight of the racquet effectively stretches the forearm pronators, setting up the SSC action that is responsible for so much of the "free" or effortless RHS speed he gets.

Tricky, and I hope he makes an appearance, suggested many tricks to try to do this yourself. The most recent one, and the best in my opinion, is to pronate the hand of the non-hitting arm during the backswing - turning the hand/forearm so that your pinky rotates up toward the sky. Doing this with the off-hard tends to result in the hitting hand following this motion. This is a good trick, as you don't consciously try to do anything special with your hitting hand. We all know that consciously doing stuff during the stroke can get ugly. :)

bhupaes 11-15-2013 09:00 PM

Hey corners, you are right as usual! I didn't want to bring up the active/passive stuff just to keep things simple... and I remember tricky's point about the non-dominant hand influencing the dominant hand. Glad you chimed in, since this gets out of my area of expertise pretty quick! :)

Topspin Shot 11-15-2013 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corners (Post 7903783)
The flip you're talking about is not done actively by Federer; it happens as a result of him beginning the forward swing with the racquet face closed. Having the racquet face closed at the end of the backswing with an eastern grip is only possible with a pronated forearm. Pulling from that position results in the weight of the racquet rapidly supinating the forearm and extending the wrist as the arm and hand are dragged forward from the shoulder. These forearm and wrist motions are passive, not active, and the result is that the weight of the racquet effectively stretches the forearm pronators, setting up the SSC action that is responsible for so much of the "free" or effortless RHS speed he gets.

Tricky, and I hope he makes an appearance, suggested many tricks to try to do this yourself. The most recent one, and the best in my opinion, is to pronate the hand of the non-hitting arm during the backswing - turning the hand/forearm so that your pinky rotates up toward the sky. Doing this with the off-hard tends to result in the hitting hand following this motion. This is a good trick, as you don't consciously try to do anything special with your hitting hand. We all know that consciously doing stuff during the stroke can get ugly. :)

I wouldn't obsess about my non hitting arm but rather keep the backswing on the right side of my body and keep my hitting arm relaxed and fluid.

bhupaes 11-15-2013 09:34 PM

BTW, regarding the non-hitting arm, I have my own theories of how best to use it, FWIW. What I believe is that when the two hands work together, hand to eye coordination is enhanced and one makes much cleaner contact. In my own experimentation with forehands, volleys, and overheads, I have found this to be true, and this is how I use my non-hitting (left) arm. One side effect is that the body gets positioned correctly for the stroke, since one is forced to turn when one has two hands on the racquet for the unit turn.

TennisCJC 11-16-2013 07:11 AM

Also, 2 hand take back in prep or unit turn aids with keeping both arms in sync with the body. When the racket arm gets out of sync with the core rotation is when the FH goes off.


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