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-   -   Open stance vs square stance for forehand (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=485403)

julian 12-15-2013 04:17 PM

Open stance vs square stance for forehand
 
Kinetics of the upper extremity in the open and square stance tennis forehand.
Bahamonde RE; Knudson D. J Sci Med Sport; 6(1): 88-101, 2003 Mar.
Artigo em InglÍs | MEDLINE | ID: 12801214
Resumo
Seven right-handed teaching professionals and eight intermediate tennis players were filmed using two high-speed cameras (100 Hz) as they performed open and square stance forehand drives. Three-dimensional coordinates (3D) were reconstructed using the DLT method. A three-segment rigid body model of the racket and upper extremity was used to calculate the kinetics of the wrist, elbow, and shoulder joints up to impact. The open stance created lower resultant velocities of the racket at impact (21.2 and 15.8 m/s) than the square stance (22.3 and 16.4 m/s) for professional and intermediate subjects, respectively. The largest components of the resultant joint torques were generated by the shoulder horizontal adductors, followed by elbow varus torques, and shoulder internal rotation torques. Torques were similar across stance and skill level except for significantly (p < 0.05) greater peak shoulder internal rotation torques in the square compared to the open stance, greater peak wrist flexion torques in the intermediate compared to the professionals, and greater peak wrist flexion torques in the square stance compared to the open stance. The data did not support the hypothesis that the open stance technique creates greater loading throughout the upper extremity than the square stance technique. Peak upper extremity torques were similar to peak torques reported for baseball pitching and represent loads that could contribute to strength imbalances and overuse injuries.

Shroud 12-15-2013 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julian (Post 7953107)
Kinetics of the upper extremity in the open and square stance tennis forehand.
Bahamonde RE; Knudson D. J Sci Med Sport; 6(1): 88-101, 2003 Mar.
Artigo em InglÍs | MEDLINE | ID: 12801214
Resumo
Seven right-handed teaching professionals and eight intermediate tennis players were filmed using two high-speed cameras (100 Hz) as they performed open and square stance forehand drives. Three-dimensional coordinates (3D) were reconstructed using the DLT method. A three-segment rigid body model of the racket and upper extremity was used to calculate the kinetics of the wrist, elbow, and shoulder joints up to impact. The open stance created lower resultant velocities of the racket at impact (21.2 and 15.8 m/s) than the square stance (22.3 and 16.4 m/s) for professional and intermediate subjects, respectively. The largest components of the resultant joint torques were generated by the shoulder horizontal adductors, followed by elbow varus torques, and shoulder internal rotation torques. Torques were similar across stance and skill level except for significantly (p < 0.05) greater peak shoulder internal rotation torques in the square compared to the open stance, greater peak wrist flexion torques in the intermediate compared to the professionals, and greater peak wrist flexion torques in the square stance compared to the open stance. The data did not support the hypothesis that the open stance technique creates greater loading throughout the upper extremity than the square stance technique. Peak upper extremity torques were similar to peak torques reported for baseball pitching and represent loads that could contribute to strength imbalances and overuse injuries.

never heard of the square stance. What is it?

julian 12-15-2013 04:44 PM

Square/neutral defined
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shroud (Post 7953116)
never heard of the square stance. What is it?

https://www.google.com/search?q=squa...w=1280&bih=575

BlueB 12-15-2013 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julian (Post 7953107)
The largest components of the resultant joint torques were generated by the shoulder horizontal adductors, followed by elbow varus torques, and shoulder internal rotation torques.

Does that mean that the most of the stroke power is generated by the hand (mostly at the shoulder), after all?

Shroud 12-15-2013 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julian (Post 7953136)

Yikes. Thanks for linking that. I dont think I use ANY of them in the pict below for my forehand:



Closed for the backhand

5263 12-15-2013 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shroud (Post 7953144)
Yikes. Thanks for linking that. I dont think I use ANY of them in the pict below for my forehand:

Closed for the backhand

cause you are a lefty?

SystemicAnomaly 12-15-2013 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shroud (Post 7953116)
never heard of the square stance. What is it?

Same as neutral stance or even stance -- in between open stance & closed stance.

SystemicAnomaly 12-15-2013 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shroud (Post 7953144)
Yikes. Thanks for linking that. I dont think I use ANY of them in the pict below for my forehand:

http://www.mountainghosttennis.com/t...ancesright.gif

Closed for the backhand

Closed stance is fine for single-handed BH. Would not overuse it for the FH or the 2-handed BH. It tends to produce inefficient footwork & recovery for many shots (that are not 1-handed BHs).

Shroud 12-15-2013 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5263 (Post 7953190)
cause you are a lefty?

Nope.

Just cause. I think I am lazy. :)

on the forehand, the feet are pretty much pointing at the net. Right foot is about 60 degrees or more towards the net than the pict. Take your right foot that in the pict is pointing to the right fence and turn it probably about 60-70 degrees towards the net. Put the left pointing to the net.

That was shadow swinging. I think that is how it goes, but I suppose a vid is in order.

I thought pointing mostly at the net was an open stance but looks like its not.

Here is mostly how it looks. Though I am guessing it depends on the shot. Volley like that too...


Shroud 12-15-2013 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 7953318)
Closed stance is fine for single-handed BH. Would not overuse it for the FH or the 2-handed BH. It tends to produce inefficient footwork & recovery for many shots (that are not 1-handed BHs).

Except for the backhand I don't think I used a closed stance for anything. Pretty certain that I hit some backhands (like service returns) with an open stance. Great point about recovery.

corbind 12-15-2013 11:28 PM

Interesting data

OTMPut 12-16-2013 12:01 AM

So linear momentum wins. This guy said something similar a while ago:

http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/

Bobs tennis 12-16-2013 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OTMPut (Post 7953497)
So linear momentum wins. This guy said something similar a while ago:

http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/

I've missed that site in the past but some very good hints put out on it.Especially like their myth busters...

TennisCJC 12-16-2013 04:58 AM

There is another thread with a link to Matts Wilander and he advocates a semi-open or neutral stance for the FH too. He says club and pro players would be better hitting this way instead of open.

I was watching Del Po and Novak play in a recent final and noticed how Del Po made 2 or 3 crucial mistakes on wide FH because his stance was too open and he failed to control the stroke.

I think it is easiest to hit hard and generate the most spin from a semi-open stance that is near neutral when you have the time to setup.

David Ferrer hits more open stance FHs than any top pro in my opinion and he contradicts the thought the semi-open or neutral is better as he does quite well with his open stance.

SystemicAnomaly 12-16-2013 05:19 AM

^ Do not know if Ferrer has any hip issues with an overuse of a fully open stance. However other prolific users of the fully open stance, such as Hewitt and Keurten, developed hip issues. Kuerten's hip problems put an early end to his career. Hewitt has had 2 surgeries on his right hip, I believe. His use of the jumping BH has possibly added to the stresses to his right hip induced by his open stance FH.

Some experts have written (books) that have discussed the added stress to the hip from prolific use of the open stance FH. Using a variety of stances, esp the neutral and semi-open stances, is probably much better for avoiding overuse injuries to the hip and, possibly, other body parts.

sureshs 12-16-2013 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shroud (Post 7953144)
Yikes. Thanks for linking that. I dont think I use ANY of them in the pict below for my forehand:



Closed for the backhand

Problem with this image (which I have seen before) is that the 4 cases are not normalized in position. They should be redrawn from a constant positional reference, e.g,, left foot just behind the baseline in the first case. As they stand now (no pun), in the second and third cases, we must mentally bring the left foot down to the position of the left foot in the first case.

TennisCJC 12-16-2013 05:36 AM

I am not aware of any hip issues for Ferrer. I don't think he has any major health issues as he is around 30 yo give or take a year and has never missed much time due to injury.

How does open stance stress hips? Is it from the extra coiling of the core that is needed to get the shoulders and hips sideways while the feet remain open?

user92626 12-16-2013 09:20 AM

I don't find any stance putting stress on the hips at all. Only certain stances like Open put a lot of stress on the knees and maybe ankles. I use the legs to plant, push, rotate, etc. It's tough for the joints (and shoes).

Power Player 12-16-2013 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TennisCJC (Post 7953716)
There is another thread with a link to Matts Wilander and he advocates a semi-open or neutral stance for the FH too. He says club and pro players would be better hitting this way instead of open.

I was watching Del Po and Novak play in a recent final and noticed how Del Po made 2 or 3 crucial mistakes on wide FH because his stance was too open and he failed to control the stroke.

I think it is easiest to hit hard and generate the most spin from a semi-open stance that is near neutral when you have the time to setup.

David Ferrer hits more open stance FHs than any top pro in my opinion and he contradicts the thought the semi-open or neutral is better as he does quite well with his open stance.

Yes, exactly. I have been saying this for years on here. I only use an open stance when I simply do not have the time to set up in a semi-open.

5263 12-16-2013 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TennisCJC (Post 7953785)
I am not aware of any hip issues for Ferrer. I don't think he has any major health issues as he is around 30 yo give or take a year and has never missed much time due to injury.

How does open stance stress hips? Is it from the extra coiling of the core that is needed to get the shoulders and hips sideways while the feet remain open?

being over aggressive with anything can lead to stress...mostly this is just and excuse for some to hold on to old beliefs....if their is stress, it is likely from those not doing it right. Think this study is valid with such a small sample size?


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