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-   -   Muscling the ball. (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=487272)

carguy01123 01-07-2014 08:10 PM

Muscling the ball.
 
I recently posted a hitting video, and people were talking about how it's recommended that I shouldn't kill the ball every time. I was wondering if this is what you do in matches as well. Do you just keep rallying until you get the opportune moment to kill the ball or do you kill it every time? Thanks!

mightyrick 01-07-2014 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carguy01123 (Post 7998874)
I recently posted a hitting video, and people were talking about how it's recommended that I shouldn't kill the ball every time. I was wondering if this is what you do in matches as well. Do you just keep rallying until you get the opportune moment to kill the ball or do you kill it every time? Thanks!

Brent Abel describes this the best I've heard from any coach. He describes basically three swing tempos that every player should have. Slow, Medium, and Fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BVGFqDYEN8

During rallies, I use a very natural swing tempo. Engage the full core. Engage a good forehand lag. During rallies, I will vary placement and pace using two tempos - slow and medium tempo.

When I see an opening, I will go for a winner at either a medium or fast tempo swing.

At no time am I thinking "hit it as hard as I can". I have three tempos that I can swing, and I choose the tempo based on what I'm trying to do.

The distribution of my shots by swing tempo is probably 60% medium, 30% slow, and 10% fast.

user92626 01-07-2014 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carguy01123 (Post 7998874)
I recently posted a hitting video, and people were talking about how it's recommended that I shouldn't kill the ball every time. I was wondering if this is what you do in matches as well. Do you just keep rallying until you get the opportune moment to kill the ball or do you kill it every time? Thanks!

In matches, I don't hit for the sake of hitting. Every hit I make has the intention of making it difficult for opponent. When I'm put on defense obviously I'll try to make the best shot to stay in the point. So, yeah, kill it every time or do your best.

Topspin Shot 01-07-2014 09:27 PM

In matches, assuming you want to win, don't hit a shot that you aren't confident you'll make. This does not mean push, but it does mean don't aim for the lines, and don't swing so fast that your stroke breaks down.

Gyswandir 01-08-2014 11:35 AM

Rhs
 
This is something that confuses me:
We are told to increase rhs as much as possible to increase spin, consequently consistency. Yet, at the same time all say to rally using 70% max of your speed.
How do these two things reconcile?

user92626 01-08-2014 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyswandir (Post 8000155)
This is something that confuses me:
We are told to increase rhs as much as possible to increase spin, consequently consistency. Yet, at the same time all say to rally using 70% max of your speed.
How do these two things reconcile?

Probably because max speed is defined as where you break down. So, hit as fast as you can but well under the break down speed, and some "analysts" came up with 70% as the sweet spot.

user92626 01-08-2014 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topspin Shot (Post 7998986)
In matches, assuming you want to win, don't hit a shot that you aren't confident you'll make. This does not mean push, but it does mean don't aim for the lines, and don't swing so fast that your stroke breaks down.

There's always a gray area in confidence, meaning it's never a yes or a no. There are many shades of maybe. So, it's a matter of observing your skills and calculating your chance. If you're 90% consistent and too comfortable and the match is drawn out too long, you're not playing your best. You should only be a little more consistent than your opponent and to win as fast as you can. He'll go home and rest but you'll have to play better opponents. That's why.

mightyrick 01-08-2014 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyswandir (Post 8000155)
This is something that confuses me:
We are told to increase rhs as much as possible to increase spin, consequently consistency. Yet, at the same time all say to rally using 70% max of your speed.
How do these two things reconcile?

Yeah, if someone says increase RHS as much as possible, that's probably not very well-worded. That could easily be interpreted to put 100% into the kinetic chain on every shot... which obviously is badness.

It's probably better to say "strive for as much RHS as is possible with any given natural reliable swing tempo".

torpantennis 01-08-2014 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyswandir (Post 8000155)
This is something that confuses me:
We are told to increase rhs as much as possible to increase spin, consequently consistency. Yet, at the same time all say to rally using 70% max of your speed.
How do these two things reconcile?

IMO, the solution is to use the ATP style racquet takeback, rather than the WTA style takeback. The keypoints in the ATP takeback are keeping the racquet head and the hand in front of the shoulderline, and keeping elbow high and far away from the body. Then you just relax the arm and wrist, immediately rotate the hips explosively which'll extend the wrist at last second, and the lagging racquet will then naturally swing through without any conscious effort.

The WTA takeback is longer, and the stroke is more dependant of your own conscious FORCED push through the contact zone. It's very hard to moderate pace, as all the small changes in your effort will strongly affect how the ball leaves the racquet. With the ATP style it's easier to moderate the effort as the racquet will in any case swing through passively with its' own mass rather than with you actively hitting the ball. The stroke is not so sensitive to small changes.

Do you hit ATP or WTA style?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMqQ2ys71bw

GoudX 01-08-2014 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyswandir (Post 8000155)
This is something that confuses me:
We are told to increase rhs as much as possible to increase spin, consequently consistency. Yet, at the same time all say to rally using 70% max of your speed.
How do these two things reconcile?

Everyone seems to make the mistake that increasing/maximising RHS means swinging with 90% effort instead of 70% on every shot.

On the contrary, it actually means that the player should go off and focus on developing their co-ordination, strength and timing so that their maximum natural swing speed increases. This allows the player to keep swinging at a controlled 70% effort with increased RHS. After all 70% for someone with a 80mph swing is much quicker than 70% for someone with a 50mph maximum swing .

Topspin Shot 01-08-2014 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by user92626 (Post 8000182)
There's always a gray area in confidence, meaning it's never a yes or a no. There are many shades of maybe. So, it's a matter of observing your skills and calculating your chance. If you're 90% consistent and too comfortable and the match is drawn out too long, you're not playing your best. You should only be a little more consistent than your opponent and to win as fast as you can. He'll go home and rest but you'll have to play better opponents. That's why.

Agreed. Confidence is a generic term, and I like to use it because it is generic, and you can take it to mean what you will. BTW, have you seen OP's hitting video? He's wailing away at the ball, ATP style nonetheless, and I think he misses more shots than he makes.

Topspin Shot 01-08-2014 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by torpantennis (Post 8000277)
IMO, the solution is to use the ATP style racquet takeback, rather than the WTA style takeback. The keypoints in the ATP takeback are keeping the racquet head and the hand in front of the shoulderline, and keeping elbow high and far away from the body. Then you just relax the arm and wrist, immediately rotate the hips explosively which'll extend the wrist at last second, and the lagging racquet will then naturally swing through without any conscious effort.

The WTA takeback is longer, and the stroke is more dependant of your own conscious FORCED push through the contact zone. It's very hard to moderate pace, as all the small changes in your effort will strongly affect how the ball leaves the racquet. With the ATP style it's easier to moderate the effort as the racquet will in any case swing through passively with its' own mass rather than with you actively hitting the ball. The stroke is not so sensitive to small changes.

Do you hit ATP or WTA style?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMqQ2ys71bw

OP hits ATP style, and style makes no difference if he can't keep the ball in the court.

mightyrick 01-08-2014 01:57 PM

Just emulate Dolgopolov's RHS. It's easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzb_GbnMnnM

Topspin Shot 01-08-2014 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightyrick (Post 8000520)
Just emulate Dolgopolov's RHS. It's easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzb_GbnMnnM

I take it you're being sarcastic?

psv255 01-08-2014 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightyrick (Post 8000520)
Just emulate Dolgopolov's RHS. It's easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzb_GbnMnnM

awesome...thanks for the video MR!

^OP, it's good to make the distinction between muscling and what you're doing, which is spraying. You aren't muscling - your shot has great potential because you're getting what seems like very easy racket head speed (i.e. power and spin) through being loose, but it's a matter of controlling and focusing it to get consistent.
The reason why it's not consistent? Any ball waist high within 3 ft you kill, but for everything else it seems like you don't care enough to move to. So you take a couple of late steps or jump to adjust, and then proceed to kill it again. If you hit softer your hitting to picking up ball ratio will skyrocket, and you would be able to control your shots better.

Adding to the good info by mightyrick about swing speed, I'd suggest you spend a LOT more time - like 30 minutes of your hitting session - hitting from half court with the service line as your baseline, with a shorter, earlier takeback and consistently 3-4 feet over the net. You will quickly develop more feel and see what kind of swing speed will work for you.

examples of this:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ_60Hqm2e0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFAazh6p2BY#t=168

When looking for your hitting partner's next shot, NEVER stand straight up and never let your heels touch the ground. Hitting and weight transfer during the shot is another thing, but remain on your toes, alert, knees flexed, weight slightly forward, while looking for your next shot.

mightyrick 01-08-2014 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topspin Shot (Post 8000523)
I take it you're being sarcastic?

Yeah, I should have put the devil or grinning emoticon. Definitely being sarcastic. Dolgopolov generates so much RHS that it's ridiculous. There might be 10 guys in the entire world who can generate that much RHS.


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