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-   -   which players have similar serve motion of Pancho Gonzales? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=498247)

taurussable 04-21-2014 06:43 PM

which players have similar serve motion of Pancho Gonzales?
 
I am trying to shorten my take back and Pancho is such a great model. Interested to see more of his serves but his video is too scarce. Which players (current or retired) have similar serve motion of Pancho?

Topspin Shot 04-21-2014 06:45 PM

Federer is probably the best model though unlike Pancho, Federer uses a platform stance.

cjs 04-21-2014 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topspin Shot (Post 8315865)
Federer is probably the best model though unlike Pancho, Federer uses a platform stance.

Fed doesn't have an abbreviated take back like Pancho. I think Pancho's serve is really beautiful, though I wouldn't be copying how he lands on his right leg (a product of the old serve and volley days).

Roddick springs to mind as having one of the most pronounced abbreviated take backs in recent time.

taurussable 04-21-2014 07:12 PM

I vote for Wawrinka for following reasons:

the fluidity(Fed is amazing fluid too)

racquet drop(no time racquet hitting face is pointing up, Sampras and Federer's racquet hitting face has time of pointing slightly up during racquet drop)

upright posture

minimal jumping

strong pronation

I found there are two kinds of racquet drops, Sampras, Federer is one kind

Pancho and Wawrinka is another kind, their racquet drop forms a plane which is perpendicular to their body.


I am still looking for serves similar to Pancho.

SystemicAnomaly 04-21-2014 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjs (Post 8315889)
Fed doesn't have an abbreviated take back like Pancho. I think Pancho's serve is really beautiful, though I wouldn't be copying how he lands on his right leg (a product of the old serve and volley days)...

That landing is a actually a product of serving rules that were in place when Pancho learned to serve. He started his "pro" career in the late 1940s. Prior to the 1960s, serve rules required players to keep one foot in contact with the ground and behind the baseline before striking the ball.

Many players continued this style of serving in the '60s and '70's. Take a look at Rod Laver's serve in the early/mid '70s. Many coaches were still teaching this style even in the 80s. Borg, OTOH, in the early '70s was jumping (into the court) and landing on the front foot before the back leg swung forward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQQfSChtzUU

S&V greats of the 80s and 90s, like Edberg and Sampras, employed a jumping style similar to Borg. Becker, however, was a bit different.

LoboLaw1984 04-21-2014 11:29 PM

Federer. I'm not kidding either the upper body is pretty similiar.

cjs 04-21-2014 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 8316200)
That landing is a actually a product of serving rules that were in place when Pancho learned to serve. He started his "pro" career in the late 1940s. Prior to the 1960s, serve rules required players to keep one foot in contact with the ground and behind the baseline before striking the ball.

Many players continued this style of serving in the '60s and '70's. Take a look at Rod Laver's serve in the early/mid '70s. Many coaches were still teaching this style even in the 80s. Borg, OTOH, in the early '70s was jumping (into the court) and landing on the front foot before the back leg swung forward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQQfSChtzUU

S&V greats of the 80s and 90s, like Edberg and Sampras, employed a jumping style similar to Borg. Becker, however, was a bit different.

That explains why all my old coaches during the 1980s, who were 50+ years old at the time, served as if they were walking into the court.

Do you know why they changed the rule?

SystemicAnomaly 04-22-2014 05:56 AM

^ Do not know the reason for the rule change. Prior to 1903 players were allowed to walk or run to the service line to deliver the serve. I believe that late in 1959, the rule about keeping one foot on the ground at all times during the serve was amended.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/6...of-mens-tennis

I did not change from that old style until the early 90s (when I started studying Sampras' serve). I still see many players on the court these days with that older style.

Quote:

Originally Posted by taurussable (Post 8315905)
... racquet drop (no time racquet hitting face is pointing up, Sampras and Federer's racquet hitting face has time of pointing slightly up during racquet drop)

I found there are two kinds of racquet drops, Sampras, Federer is one kind

Pancho and Wawrinka is another kind, their racquet drop forms a plane which is perpendicular to their body.

I am still looking for serves similar to Pancho.

Roger Federer serve motion
Pancho Gonzales serve motion
Stanimal serve motion

It appears the the orientation of the racket face at the trophy position is different for Roger than for Pancho. Stan W might be supinating his forearm early in the racket racket drop from his trophy position.
.

mightyrick 04-22-2014 06:23 AM

Most players at that time had Gonzales' serve motion. I'm not sure why the focus on comparison against Gonzales' specifically.

Back in those days, you were far more restricted by the following two things:

1) Rules about foot placement
2) Technology - heaver racquets and very limited string differences and configurations

Laver's serve was the quintessential evolution towards a pinpoint serve heavily engaging an extreme SSC, extreme racquet drop, and strong kinetic chain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogJMaP1GRmA

taurussable 04-22-2014 08:32 AM

Laver seems to fit in Stan, Pancho category too. His racquet hitting face never point up even a little bit.

Laver's backswing has a lag.

LeeD 04-22-2014 10:27 AM

Only with a forehand grip pancake serve can the face of the racket ever point up at the sky during the swing after trophy position.
Conti grip, the face is closed thru the whole backswing loop, then starts upwards with the EDGE of the rackethead leading, to open up just before ball contact, facing just above the reciever's head for a moment. But never facing above the server.

mbm0912 04-22-2014 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightyrick (Post 8316615)
Most players at that time had Gonzales' serve motion. I'm not sure why the focus on comparison against Gonzales' specifically.

Back in those days, you were far more restricted by the following two things:

1) Rules about foot placement
2) Technology - heaver racquets and very limited string differences and configurations

Laver's serve was the quintessential evolution towards a pinpoint serve heavily engaging an extreme SSC, extreme racquet drop, and strong kinetic chain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogJMaP1GRmA

He looks like he's trying to copy Rafa's takeback.

taurussable 04-22-2014 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeD (Post 8317172)
Only with a forehand grip pancake serve can the face of the racket ever point up at the sky during the swing after trophy position.
Conti grip, the face is closed thru the whole backswing loop, then starts upwards with the EDGE of the rackethead leading, to open up just before ball contact, facing just above the reciever's head for a moment. But never facing above the server.

you guys are the expert.


I'd like to hear comments on this



the racquet hitting face is pointing up slightly. You can never find this position in Pancho, Laver or Wawrinka's serve.

Chas Tennis 04-22-2014 03:30 PM

This 53 minute long documentary film about Pancho Gonzales starts with a close-up of his serve when he was 41. At that time, well after the rule change, he could have jumped but it does not appear that his shoulder or head moved up very much as with a jump.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wo9v33t6xI

At one point I thought could see ISR but I tend to see ISR everywhere.

SystemicAnomaly 04-22-2014 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taurussable (Post 8317846)
... I'd like to hear comments on this

http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps0a4bb50d.png

the racquet hitting face is pointing up slightly. You can never find this position in Pancho, Laver or Wawrinka's serve.

I already accounted for the difference in Federer's serve. It has more to do with his preparation and trophy position than the racket drop itself. Take a close look at the orientation of the racket face at the trophy position for Federer (and Sampras). Much, if not most, of the racket head drop is due to ESR. When Roger externally rotates his shoulder for the drop, the face will naturally face upward given the orientation of the racket face during the trophy phase.

Now take a look at the orientation of the racket face at the trophy for Pancho or Rod. When they externally rotate the shoulder for the racket drop, the face is one edge rather then open.

Stanimal's prep and trophy appears to be somewhat different. His elbow position at his trophy is a bit high (not in line with his shoulder tilt like most elite servers). Not certain, but it also appears that he might employ more elbow flexion and forearm supination than other elite servers -- most use ESR w/o extra flexion.

taurussable 04-23-2014 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 8318446)
I already accounted for the difference in Federer's serve. It has more to do with his preparation and trophy position than the racket drop itself. Take a close look at the orientation of the racket face at the trophy position for Federer (and Sampras). Much, if not most, of the racket head drop is due to ESR. When Roger externally rotates his shoulder for the drop, the face will naturally face upward given the orientation of the racket face during the trophy phase.

Now take a look at the orientation of the racket face at the trophy for Pancho or Rod. When they externally rotate the shoulder for the racket drop, the face is one edge rather then open.

Stanimal's prep and trophy appears to be somewhat different. His elbow position at his trophy is a bit high (not in line with his shoulder tilt like most elite servers). Not certain, but it also appears that he might employ more elbow flexion and forearm supination than other elite servers -- most use ESR w/o extra flexion.


Great stuff. Thanks SA for the comment.


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