Talk Tennis

Talk Tennis (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php)
-   Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=23)
-   -   Crank or Drop Weight: Which is Faster? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=871)

onotu2 03-04-2004 11:06 AM

Crank or Drop Weight: Which is Faster?
 
I currently use a Klippermate, but hope to upgrade to either the MS200TT or the Neos 1000. I'm familiar with the virtues of constant pull vs crank & lock, but all things being equal, which machine would produce a faster stringing job? On the Klippermate you have to fuss around with the string in the tension jaw for it to set right and it's generally a pain. Is it easy and quicker on the Laserfibre and Prince? And if so, does one have an edge over the other?

Deuce 03-04-2004 10:23 PM

Most dropweight machines are faster than the Klippermate because they have a ratchet or clutch in the string gripper.

David Pavlich 03-05-2004 11:07 AM

The Neos would be faster than almost all drop weights. The exception might be the Laserfibre 200DX (don't hold me to the number location on the DX). It's a drop weight, but it is activated with a foot pedal. Look for posts on the Laserfibre from a TW Board member named "drak". He has one. It's more money than the Neos however.

The Neos is a great machine. Only a 2 point mounting system but perhaps the best 2 pointer in the industry.

The rest is up to you. If you prefer constant pull, then you'll have to go elsewhere. However, the string jobs will be very consistent with the Neos as long as you do your part and make sure it is calibrated.

David

Rabbit 03-05-2004 11:24 AM

I agree with David. String jobs are much faster with the Neos. As for the constant pull deal, it's really all relative. When I used a drop weight, I set the tension 5 - 8 pounds higher on the drop weight to achieve similar results. The first thing I had to do when I moved to the Neos was duplicate my results. This meant I had to drop the tension according to the Neos by the same 5 - 8 pounds. Now, this said the Neos still gives an overall tighter string job than a dropweight machine. It's hard to describe, but the dropweight's string jobs just felt softer then the Neos. That's neither a bad or good thing, it just different.

I think the Neos is the best machine for the money on the market.

Gaines Hillix 03-05-2004 02:06 PM

A Neos is easy to mount the racquet on and the crank mechanism takes about the same time to use as the MS200TT or MS200DX. The MS200TT is a unique drop weight machine and the MS200DX is even more so because it's a drop weight for all intents and purposes, but it's foot operated. If you include mounting the frame I'd have to give the nod to the Neos. On the issue of string tension, I think's it's generally agreed that a constant pull machine, drop weight or otherwise, will create a stringbed that is about 10% stiffer than a crank machine if the same reference tension is used. This can be compensated for between machines by adjusting the reference tension accordingly and consistency is also important. It's critical to consistently clamp off as soon as possible after the tension head locks out.

SunDog 03-05-2004 07:26 PM

three points of clarification that have little to do with the original post:

1. the ms200dx is not a drop weight machine - it has a constant pull spring tensioning mechanism. a description of this mechanism can be read on the stringway website.

2. i think that the neos is a 4 point inside mounting machine - i could be wrong on this one.

3. in general - assuming all other factors are equal - if you want to match the reference tension of a lock out machine with a constant pull machine - you would lower the set tension of the drop weight - not raise it.

something that often times gets overlooked in this discussion is the clamps. a lot of drop weight machines (not the ms200tt of course) use flying clamps - and i can't think of any crank machines that do. i suspect that flying clamps contribute more to a tension mismatch between the machine set tension and the actual stringbed tension than a lock out mechanism on the tensioner. the only empirical evidence i have for this theory is the complaints from teammates that have had their racquets strung both on my ms200tt and our other teammate's SSII indicating that his machine produces a lower tension stringbed than mine for a given reference tension. If rabbit was using a drop weight machine with flying clamps prior to switching to the neos - and he did in fact have to lower the reference tension on the neos to achieve the same type of stringbed on the lock out machine - then that looks like more evidence to bolster this theory.

bottom line - get the best machine you can afford and learn all of it's shortcommings as you attempt to understand all of the issues that are involved with producing consistent and accurate results - mounting system, clamps, tensioning mechanism and tequnique.

btw - i would guess that a given stringer could do a faster job on the neos than any drop weight - even the ms200tt. just a guess tho.

David Pavlich 03-06-2004 11:11 AM

Sundog...Thanks for the description of the Laserfibre. Didn't know that.

The Neos is a 2 point system. I just used a friend's Neos when I visited him. I had never strung on the machine before so I gave it a try. I had to pay close attention to the fact that it doesn't have 360 degree rotation. Once you get used to it, it's a nice stringing machine.

David

Steve Huff 03-06-2004 12:01 PM

Sundog is correct about the Laserfibre. Tim Sullivan described it to me as similar to a smaller version of the spring on a garage door. It seems a great way to get a constant pull in a compact design. It seems like a great machine, even though I ended up buying something else.

Rabbit, if your constant pull (drop weight) machine was not stringing tighter than your Neos, then either one was miscalibrated or you were losing a lot of tension in the drop weight due to the clamps. If calibrated correctly, the constant pull will produce a tighter stringjob than a lockout. Not that it's better. It just should be tighter.

Rabbit 03-07-2004 10:25 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a dropweight doesn't classify as a constant pull machine. The one I used was a Gamma with floating clamps, and I agree that they were probably the main issue. But, a dropweight is only accurate when the arm is level and if there is additional elongation of the string, then the arm is no longer level and there is some error in tension. It is my understanding that the Laserfibre machines do not have this problem, but I could be wrong.

In any event, I think the whole constant pull vs. lockout is way overblown. It takes me maybe a couple of seconds after tension is reached on my Neos to clamp the string. I'd have to see empirical data on how much tension is actually lost in those 2 - 3 seconds. Now, if I left it sitting there for a minute or better I can understand the concern, but that doesn't happen. Plus, if I strung on a constant pull machine, I' be backing the tension down to match the results I'm getting on the Neos.

Tension is nothing but a number and relative to whatever machine you're on.

David Pavlich 03-07-2004 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabbit
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a dropweight doesn't classify as a constant pull machine. The one I used was a Gamma with floating clamps, and I agree that they were probably the main issue. But, a dropweight is only accurate when the arm is level and if there is additional elongation of the string, then the arm is no longer level and there is some error in tension. It is my understanding that the Laserfibre machines do not have this problem, but I could be wrong.

In any event, I think the whole constant pull vs. lockout is weigh overblown. It takes me maybe a couple of seconds after tension is reached on my Neos to clamp the string. I'd have to see empirical data on how much tension is actually lost in those 2 - 3 seconds. Now, if I left it sitting there for a minute or better I can understand the concern, but that doesn't happen. Plus, if I strung on a constant pull machine, I' be backing the tension down to match the results I'm getting on the Neos.

Tension is nothing but a number and relative to whatever machine you're on.

I had a Gamma 4004, which is a crank machine. I did and experiment with a calibrator. The second it locks out, you can see the calibrator start to retract, especially with string like Sensation.

And the same can be said for a CP machine. I can watch the tension head on mine continue to pull with string like Prince More Feel. As a matter of fact, when I do a string job with More Feel, I let it tension and then wait for a few seconds to allow the tension head to finally stop. And with a crank machine and More Feel, you should tension, clamp, then tension again to get as much of the stretch out as possible.


While you are correct about tension being relative to the machine being used, if you have a customer that's had his racquets strung on a crank machine and you have a CP machine, you should mention that fact.

Having said all of that, consistency is what makes a good string job (as long as the machine is calibrated properly and you follow proper stringing techniques). If you do your stringing the same way every time, it doesn't matter if you use a crank or CP machine. You will have produced a good string job.

David

SunDog 03-07-2004 05:44 PM

drop weights are constant pull. some of them might not be contantly pulling the tension indicated (depending on the position of the arm on the non-LF machines) - but they are still constantly pulling. the LF drop weights are the most contant pulling of all the constant pull machines - since they only respond to gravity and do not have to wait for anything else to tell them to keep pulling - and gravity is always turned on. when gravity fails - that is when tennis will become really interesting.

topspin 03-07-2004 10:03 PM

actually the more accurate term for drop weights is "continuous pull", not "constant pull". The MS200TT is the only constant pull drop weight around, and it should not take any longer to string with than a lock out machine.

Rabbit 03-08-2004 07:08 AM

A crank machine will, however, string faster than a conventional drop weight machine.

topspin 03-08-2004 04:01 PM

Yes, very true Rabbit.

Gaines Hillix 03-08-2004 06:24 PM

topspin, how do you make the distinction that an MS200TT is true constant pull, but a typical drop weight is continuous pull, but not constant pull?

hangzhou 03-08-2004 11:01 PM

Well, if you look at the mechanism of MS200TT and other drop weight machines, the force applied to the string by MS200TT is constant at any angle, while others may vary depend on the level angle. I figured that for MS200TT, the force applied to string is not a function of the angle the level reside. For other drop weight machines, the force will be a function of the angle. Unless the angle become zero, or horizontal, then the force will be exact the reference value.
Stringway may have patent with that mechanism, thus they claim that their machine is constant pull.

hangzhou 03-08-2004 11:21 PM

I am new to stringing, here are my questions for experts:
Have you checked the tension on each individual strings (main and cross) on crank and drop weight machines after the string job is done?
Can human being detect the variance on the tension, which is to say the racket will behavior different spots on the stringbed?
Let's say one side of main have higher tensions while the other side have lower tensions because the arm was set at two different angles for each side of mains. Will that tension difference make ball behavior differently even at the spots synmatrically along the center line? (assuming the cross are same)

topspin 03-09-2004 01:58 AM

Gaines I was clarifying what sundog was stating in his post. Read what Rabbitt posted "a dropweight is only accurate when the arm is level and if there is additional elongation of the string, then the arm is no longer level and there is some error in tension." That's all I'm trying to point out.

Rabbit 03-09-2004 06:14 AM

Gaines, I think we're talking semantics here. A continuous pull implies that the machine is exerting a continuous (although not constant) force on the string. This means that while the arm is level, it exerts say 50 pounds of pressure, but as the arm starts to drop the force exerted is not equal to 50 pounds any more.

A constant pull machine exerts the same amount of force on the string. So, after the string sits there clamped, it still exerts 50 pound of pressure regardless of how much elongation occurs.

Rabbit 03-09-2004 06:26 AM

hangzhou- that is the reason that dropweights are less expensive than crank machines and crank machines are less expensive than constant pull (electronic) models.

There is a greater room for error using a dropweight machine for the exact reason you outlined, the position of the arm. Add to this the fact the most dropweights come with flying or floating clamps, and you compound the error and wind up with lesser tension than indicated on the scale. Dropweights are also slower by nature than crank machines. Dropweights that do not have ratcheting jaws are slower still. If I were going to by another dropweight machine (LaserFibre excluded), it would be one with fixed clamps.

Crank machines are more accurate and are easier and much faster to use than conventional dropweights. From my experience, they are the overwhelming choice of proshops. Primarily, the Prince Neos is the machine of choice. The reaon is that it is a direct descendant of the Ektelon which was the stringing standard for a number of years. The Neos is also very consistent, reliable, and built like a tank. Because there are so many of them out in the field, they also have a great service record.

Electronic machines are better still. They seem to the choice of those that can afford them, and may one day replace the Neos as the defacto standard stringing machine. Then again they may not. The Neos has proven that for the money, you can't beat it. And, most pro shops are interested in producing string jobs that are accurate but quick. I have no idea how an electronic machine stacks up against a crank in terms of production.

Finally, there are the Laserfibre machines which seem to have bridged the gap between drop weights and constant pull. If I were buying a machine now, I would probably have a hard time deciding between the Neos and the LaserFibre machine. They seem to have looked at what was "wrong" with the Neos and gone about fixing it.

With all this, it still comes down to what you get used to. When I strung with a dropweight, my tension was set to just over 60 pounds (between 60 and 65). I say just over because the calibration on the arm didn't really lend itself to 62 pounds or whatever. When I went to a crank machine (the Neos), I had to back the tension down. This is because the Neos' clamps didn't have any drawback and the tensioner pulls the string tighter (IMO). But, it's all what you get used to. I love the results from the Neos because they match any proshop I might get my racket strung at.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:39 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006 - Tennis Warehouse