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Old 05-18-2012, 11:06 AM   #13
Moose Malloy
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,841

Also BS that marks were not checked at the time - I played and worked at numerous events at Westside in the 70s from Jr events, WCT events and the US Open and on the Har Tru the marks got checked on a regular basis.
hmm, that's interesting. I have probably 50 clay matches on dvd tape from the 70s/80s(granted most are from the French), I've seen maybe a handful of times where an official checked a mark (they didn't even do it for Noah in the '83 French Final!)

I have these matches at Forest Hills on tape, not one checked mark I believe in any these matches (And I'm sure you remember the very odd match point in the Vilas-Connors final. Connors hits a fh that is apparently called good, Vilas looks at linesman & I guess he reverses his call, then Vilas has a delayed celebration. No checked mark, umpire says nothing, match over. have trouble imagining that happen today)

'75 USO F Connors-Orantes
'75 USO F Evert-Goolagong
'76 USO F Borg-Connors
'77 USO F Vilas-Connors
'77 USO Higueras-Rosewall
maybe have more, will have to check my list.

And I mentioned that famous Clerc-Wilander match point(see below)
did you see it? why did the umpire refuse to check the mark on such an important point(and it was right in front of him)
he even got out of his chair to leave the court because the match was over, but refused to walk a few steps to look at that mark. Everyone still goes on about Wilander's great sportsmanship that day, but in a way I think he was forced to do that because of the arrogant umpire(crowd was going nuts, it was an awkward situation)

Again, there is no way that situation could happen today.

Checking marks was not as common as today, but you are being clumsily disingenuous to suggest it was nearly unheard of, or to suggest that what Connors did was not totally disgusting, simply because he walked in a "silly sort of way". Big deal. Are there any other big match examples of a player going over to their opponents side (which you are not even allowed to do in the middle of a game) to erase a mark the opponent is pointing at, before the umpire even makes a decision whether to check it or not? The behavior is most of all a big insult to his opponent, and he got away with it simply because he was Connors. It would be interesting to see how he would have reacted if his opponent had done that to him. Stop defending the indefensible with silly scripts about what the umpire may have said, please.
Obviously I don't expect tennis fans to have a photographic memory of how the game was in the past (nor do I, but I think it would be obvious to you by now that I watch A LOT of old matches - not just what's on youtube. I watch far more old matches than current matches in fact. Do you really think I'm just speaking out of my *** & trying to sugarcoat Connors or something? I don't think it was cool what he did, but I am sure nothing would have changed had he not. as is often the case, I think the way we view tennis today makes it hard to have perspective on the past. your post is sort of weird, when so often I'm the one who frequently answers your questions about the past. And I did cite specific examples. And could probably do many more, can you find me one example of a mark being checked in a 70s claycourt match? or better yet a mark being checked & then overrturned? it seems like officials back then thought they were always right)

really, this is clip is beyond absurd. guy gets down out of chair to talk to Clerc, but won't check the mark. yeah I'm being disingenuous to suggest the way claycourt matches were officiated in the past was not really similar to the way they are today.

I think it would be a bit disingenuous to not acknowledge how different the game is today from the not too distant past. And I'm not talking about styles of play, etc, but officiating & other stuff we have gotten so used to.

Again, I watch a lot of old matches & it was shocking to me how umpires were so adamant about not checking marks not too long ago, even when players maybe questioned only once or twice a match. It clearly was some sort of party line that umpires were adhering to. And a lot of these matches I did watch live way back when & probably didn't think it was such a big deal at the time. But watching them all these years later, after watching umpires today get out of the chair 10-20 times a match(often before a player even looks at them), it does seem rather jarring & pretty unfair for players of the past.

And I could go on & on about so many details from the past that seem so strange today. I'm sure you've noticed players toweling off all the time in between points today? Rosewall did it once in a match at the USO I have (in a far quicker fashion than players today) & the commentators said, "he'd better not do that again, or he could get a warning"

Or umpires in the 80s warning players that stopped to grab a drink or towel off while switching sides in a tiebreak(surely you remember there was time where players weren't allowed to do this? play is supposed to be continuous in a tiebreak, funny how getting water & toweling off during a tiebreak today is now the norm)

Or Roche in the '70 USO Final(I mentioned this is one of your multiple "why did they play with a ball in their hands" threads)
Commentators talked of how unusual it was to to keep a ball in your pocket while serving. But they said it was ok because "he gets the 2nd ball out of his pocket very quickly."

Or the instances I've seen where balls fell out of pockets during points but lets were not called(there is a famous one with Goolagong-King at the USO)
Or Chris Evert just tapping the 2nd ball behind her after making a 1st serve because she had no pockets(recreational players wouldn't be allowed to do that in league tournaments today)

Or trash blowing on courts in matches and no lets being called. Or hats falling off players & lets not being called.

Or elderly umpires frequently getting the score wrong in matches.

Or players spraining their ankles & getting warned by the umpire for not playing immediately(no folks, there wasn't always something called an injury timeout. or sympathetic umpires who used good judgement)

Or umpires saying, 'lets just play a let' after players give them a look after a questionable call. Even if said call was a clean winner, 'let's just play a let.' the game was pro, but the officiating was clearly amateur for a long time. you do know that most tournaments just used local umpires & linesman in the 70s? for many years ATP only had a few touring umpires & that only became common in 80s. But Wimbledon still only had their own umpires for many years(as late as 1989, I think no ATP umpire still had ever worked Wimbledon) And fans think players argued a lot back then due to gamesmanship. Right. Somehow I doubt the frazzled 70 year old British guy in the chair during the '78 Wimbledon final had to pass a test that atp umpires today have to. There was a reason the game took so long to go Open, & a lot of it was due to a lot of stubborn old men of the country club ilk. Same stubborn old men ran the slams once game went open & many were still in the chair at the slams for years after. was probably hard to get out of the chair to check marks in their advanced age.

Stop defending the indefensible with silly scripts about what the umpire may have said, please.
sad thing is, I've seen this script happen so many times in old matches. And not just with the 'bad boys.' can still hear those umpires saying, "call was good, play on!" in patronizing tones the second a player gave them a quizical look. it was soo common in 70s/80s.

A recent one I saw was Sukova-Navratilova '84 AO. what a ***** in the chair. couldn't say a peep to her without being snapped at. and of course, she got the score wrong a few times. good times.

Are there any other big match examples of a player going over to their opponents side (which you are not even allowed to do in the middle of a game)
I'm sure the specific examples will come to me later, but I have seen players do this in old matches(cross the net to point at a mark & argue)

Weird that Mac said Hingis could get defaulted when she crossed the net at '99 French, I wonder if it is an actual rule or just an unwritten rule. And maybe that rule didn't exist in the 70s(since so many rules I posted upthread apparently didn't exist either)

Agassi does a good portrait of Connors at some point in his book
Agassi's portrait of himself is even more absurd. Yeah, Andre you caught Jaite's serve in that Davis Cup match because you couldn't get out of the way of the ball!
I can't think of a many more disgusting acts in tennis than someone destroying another player, then 'catching' his serve in order to give him a point out of pity, can you? Don't recall Jimmy ever doing that.

I think that was the most absurd explanation for bad oncourt behavior I've ever seen. Esp since it was written so many years later. is old Andre so full of himself that he can't acknowledge he was a fool when he was 19? I remember when it happened, everyone in tennis, even his DC teammates, blasted him for that stunt.

But today the word of Saint Andre is gospel, must accept everything in his book as the truth.

At least Jimmy hasn't written a sob story(yet) where every asshat thing he ever did was really just about us 'misunderstanding' him.

Last edited by Moose Malloy; 05-18-2012 at 11:34 AM.
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