View Single Post
Old 10-03-2012, 05:59 PM   #21
krosero
Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,157
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Malloy View Post
We all know how famous Becker was for hitting big serves down break point, coming back from 0-40 etc. Well, krosero & I have tracked many of his matches & turns out he was fairly average at making first serves down break point. I followed his entire career & would have bet good money that he would have a high number of 1st serves made down break points, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Many posters here(& commentators) repeat that about Becker frequently & probably always will. So something that isn't really true is widely accepted as fact, because of our "impressions" of watching matches, with no actual stats.
I think this is everything we have for Becker right now. Listed from best to worst.

1996 ATP Championships final vs Sampras, 4 of 5
1985 W final vs Curren, 4 of 6
1989 Davis Cup vs. Wilander, 2 of 3
1995 W SF vs. Agassi, 9 of 14
1996 YEC round-robin vs. Sampras, 6 of 10
1987 Davis Cup vs. McEnroe, 10 of 17
1995 W final vs. Sampras, 9 of 16
1993 W QF vs. Stich, 5 of 9
1989 USO final vs. Lendl, 6 of 11
1989 Davis Cup vs. Edberg, 1 of 2
1986 W final vs Lendl, 4 of 9
1991 AO final vs Lendl, 5 of 12
1987 Queens final vs Connors, 4 of 10
1985 W SF vs. Leconte, 2 of 5
1993 W SF vs Sampras, 0 of 4
1989 W SF vs. Lendl, 0 of 6

I'd forgotten his '93 Wimby sf, another zero for him.

However, Becker made all of his first serves in the two tiebreakers he won from Agassi at Wimby in '95. I don't know anyone else who's done that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Malloy View Post
Turns out Sampras wasn't too special in this stat either(from matches tracked)
Here's what we have, again from best to worst.

1999 W final vs Agassi, 4 of 4
1997 GS Cup final vs Rafter, 1 of 1
1995 USO final vs Agassi, 5 of 6
2001 W R16 vs Federer, 10 of 14
1995 Davis Cup final vs Kafelnikov, 5 of 7
1998 USO sf vs Rafter, 4 of 6
1993 W sf vs Becker, 4 of 6
1996 YEC round-robin vs Becker, 2 of 3
2001 USO qf vs Agassi, 2 of 3
1993 W qf vs Agassi, 7 of 11
1996 RG sf vs Kafelnikov, 8 of 13
1996 ATP Championships final vs Becker, 3 of 5
2002 USO final vs Agassi, 6 of 12
1992 RG qf vs Agassi, 5 of 10
1996 AO R32 vs Philippoussis, 2 of 6
1990 USO sf vs McEnroe, 2 of 6
1990 USO final vs Agassi, 1 of 3
1995 AO final vs Agassi, 7 of 21
1995 Davis Cup final vs Chesnokov, 3 of 10


Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Malloy View Post
Well, just because he wasn't 'mentioned' doesn't mean jack to me. The more matches I track of his the more I realize how clutch he was. The serves he put in down break points in the '81 W final were ridiculous(not aces which leave more of an 'impression' on viewers, but virtual unreturnables. some of the most impressive serving I've seen in a Wimbledon final, esp considering the circumstances)
I think that could be the most clutch serving performance of all time, in all seriousness. Statistically Borg and Del Potro are slightly ahead but the first serves that Mac put in were ridiculous.

And Mac missed only 1 first serve in the tiebreaks.

All of that was actually reported by Sports Illustrated. You're right that the stat is almost never mentioned, though. I don't know of any time this stat was calculated before SI's report in '81. And for years afterward there was nothing.

That's a testament to McEnroe's serving performance in that Wimbledon final -- that SI made a point of reporting what he did on break points and in the tiebreaks.

In a way it's an indirect compliment to Borg, because that's what it took to beat him, a ridiculously clutch serving performance.

You could almost say the same of 1980: Borg had to put in 12 of 13 first serves to beat McEnroe that day.

What a great pair of matches that was. These stats show how deeply keyed in Borg and Mac were.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Malloy View Post
how many 1st serves did Wilander make when down break point in that match?
14 of 18 compared to Lendl's 2 of 10.

The year before, when Lendl won, it was the reverse: Lendl went 10 of 18, Wilander only 7 of 14.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Malloy View Post
I have more stats on this from some Federer matches. I think he's pretty good at making 1st serves down break point.
When he beat Sampras at Wimbledon he put in 9 of 11.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Malloy View Post
Navratilova had such a high serve % in many of her major finals, I would guess she had high numbers in this category as well.
Maybe the best we have is 4 of 4 in the '87 Wimby semifinal vs Evert. Chris went 11 of 13 herself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Malloy View Post
Isner made 1st serves on 11 of 12 break points vs Fed in Davis Cup.
That almost ties Borg and Del Potro, and for all intents and purposes it's just as good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Malloy View Post
Lendl went 1 for 8 in '91 AO final
That had to hurt him. He also went 2 of 7 in the '83 Wimby semis vs Mac. Lendl's numbers in this stat seem almost as poor as Becker's.

Maybe the most "clutch" serving I've seen from Lendl was in the first-set tiebreak of the '85 USO final (vs Mac). In that tb he put in 4 of 4 first serves and suffered no mini-breaks. Mac put in 2 of 4.

Last edited by krosero : 10-03-2012 at 06:13 PM.
krosero is offline   Reply With Quote