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Old 11-26-2012, 05:48 PM   #7
NadalAgassi
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I for one do not consider Michael Schmuacher the best or GOAT F1 Driver of all time. Maybe the greatest in the sense he probably has the best stats, but that is it. The vast majority of his dominance is through a ridiculously dominant car. He did win 2 titles with Benneton who were never the dominant car, but many have won titles with a car further off the top than that, but all others were won in a dominant Ferrari killing all other cars. The years the Ferrari wasnt the fastest he didnt win, even over clearly inferior drivers like Jacques Villeneuve for instance, even though he sometimes came close. If Vettel matches or surpasses his # of F1 drivers titles with 7 or 8, will he be conceded as better? After all the fastest car excuse is also true of Michael, but to an even greater degree as this was the all time height of Ferrari's power. Even his relatively mediocre teammate Ruebens Barichello won many races and was often 2nd in the drivers championships. He was also aided by team orders quite often, even so blatantly displayed as a few races his teammate had to pull over near the finishing line allowing him to pass for the win, until finally the foot came down so hard one of those times they had to be more subtle. No doubt an amazing champion, one of the all time greats, and probably the most winningest driver of all time but for me not quite the #1. BBC recently came out with a list of the 20 greatest F1 Drivers ever and I tend to agree with, especialy when they rated Michael:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17299158

Quote:
Number 1 - Ayrton Senna

The greatness of the man and the brilliance of his driving is remembered easily, the occasional darkness of his psyche perhaps less so.

Number 2 - Juan Manuel Fangio

Juan Manuel Fangio set records so immense that, in percentage terms, they will surely never be beaten.

Number 3 - Jim Clark

Jim Clark towered over his era, a period when he made many grands prix mind-numbingly boring. Yes, the Lotus was often the best car, but Clark's supremacy was not in doubt.

Number 4 - Michael Schumacher

Michael Schumacher's monumental achievements came about through a perfect storm of an exceptionally talented and hard-working driver, ground-breaking technical achievement, a bottomless pit of money and a ruthless management that exploited every last avenue to its benefit...


Number 5 - Alain Prost

Alain Prost drove like poetry and was an integral part of one of the greatest rivalries sport has ever known...

Number 6 - Stirling Moss

Sir Stirling Moss is the ultimate proof that statistics count only for so much when assessing the worth of a grand prix driver...

Number 7 - Jackie Stewart

Sir Jackie Stewart's enduring legacy stretches much further than 27 grand prix wins in 99 races, three world championships and being one of the greatest drivers ever to set foot in a Formula 1 car. It is that he had a bigger effect on his sport than arguably any man in history...

Number 8 - Sebastian Vettel

The Red Bull driver has undoubtedly had a stellar career so far - 22 grand prix victories, at a rate of more than one in four races, 33 pole positions and the youngest double world champion in history. All by the age of 25 and in just five seasons in F1...

Number 9 - Niki Lauda

Just 42 days after suffering horrendous burns in a crash at the Nurburgring, Lauda, swathed in bandages, was grinding out a determined fourth-place finish in Monza. It was a moment that defined the Austrian's revered career...

Number 10 - Fernando Alonso

Alonso's standing has been affirmed by his majestic form in 2012 as he moved on to 30 grand prix victories and started his pursuit of a third world title. An F1 career that began in 2001 could yet become even more sensational...

Number 11 – Alberto Ascari

In 1952, the first of the two consecutive world titles he secured with Ferrari, Ascari won every championship F1 race bar the first. Heading into the final race of the 1953 season, he had won 11 of the previous 13 grands prix...

Number 12 - Gilles Villeneuve

Gilles Villeneuve won only six grands prix in a career that spanned a little over four years, yet 30 years after his death his name still shines out like a beacon as a symbol of the heroic qualities that to many make up the very essence of a grand prix driver...

Number 13 - Nigel Mansell

Nigel Mansell was the personification of drama in a Formula 1 car.

Whether it be daring overtaking manoeuvres, his muscular handling of some of the sport's defining cars, or the histrionics and apparent persecution complex that accompanied much of his career, there was never a dull moment when the moustachioed Midlander was around...

Number 14 - Mika Hakkinen

Michael Schumacher says his toughest rival in his first career was Mika Hakkinen, which is quite a compliment from a man who also raced against Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost and lost his final world championship battle to Fernando Alonso...

Number 15 - Lewis Hamilton

When Lewis Hamilton burst onto the Formula 1 scene in 2007, taking on and often beating the reigning world champion Fernando Alonso in equal cars, in Italy they gave him the nickname 'Il Phenomeno' - the Phenomenon...

Number 16 - Nelson Piquet

Few drivers have had perceptions of them shift as dramatically throughout their careers as Nelson Piquet.

For a while in the mid-1980s, Piquet was regarded as the best driver in the world but, as his career went on, his stock fell and at the end he slipped out of F1 almost unnoticed - and largely unlamented...

Number 17 - Emerson Fittipaldi

Emerson Fittipaldi was a trailblazer in more ways than one.

He was the man who paved the way for future generations of Brazilian drivers to make their country synonymous with Formula 1...

Number 18 - Jack Brabham

Sir Jack Brabham is one of a select band of just eight drivers who have won the world title three times or more, but his achievements go far beyond that. He is also the only man to have won a title in a car bearing his own name...

Number 19 - Graham Hill

Damon Hill makes a thought-provoking observation about his father Graham.

Despite winning two Formula 1 titles, as well as being the only man to win the 'triple crown' of F1 world championship, Le Mans and Indy 500, Graham Hill always had the image of a 'trier' - a man who made it to the top through hard graft, rather than the easy talent of his contemporary Jim Clark...

Number 20 - Jochen Rindt

Throughout Formula 1 history, there have been drivers who, through ability and charisma, have left an impression that transcends their limited results. Jochen Rindt, number 20 on BBC F1's list of the greatest drivers of all time, is one such man...

The only things I disagree with are Alonso's ranking, should be higher, probably somewhere from 6-8, and bumping Vettel down behind Alonso. Also disagree with Hamilton being on the list. Should be bumped off and replaced by Raikkonen. Other than that pretty much perfect. IMO Senna imparticular (comparing someone close to the same era) at his best was definitely better than Schumacher at his best, but sadly we never got to discover in entirety who was better due to his tragic passing, but many would argue for Senna and many for Michael, but obviously the people who selected this list side with Senna.

If Alonso can reach 4 or 5 F1 drivers titles somehow though I think I would rate him the best ever. Why? Since it is looking increasingly likely, with Ferrari's days of producing the fastest cars seemingly a thing of the past for the moment, and a long contract with Ferrari already set, he will go through virtually his whole career without ever having the fastest car. On top of that he missed several other titles by a whisker now with far from the fastest car as well. Renault which he won two F1 titles with was far from the fastest those years, even though they were still a top 3 or 4 car for the only time of their career which probably showed another of Alonso's great contributions, aiding in the car development. The only year he arguably had the best car was his one year with McLaren where he and Hamilton's hissy fit sabatoged both and allowed Raikkonen in a slower Ferrari to came from way behind to beat both for the drivers title at the end.
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